WEBVTT Kind: captions Language: ru-RU 00:00:46.000 --> 00:00:50.000 Conversations with sages. 00:01:54.000 --> 00:02:01.000 Alexander Pyatigorsky Clean air of your freedom 1 00:02:07.300 --> 00:02:12.800 - When I talk about myself, of course, 2 00:02:12.800 --> 00:02:17.600 in the sense of those things, forgive me for God's sake, 3 00:02:17.600 --> 00:02:20.000 I don't want it to turn into a philosophy lesson. 4 00:02:20.000 --> 00:02:24.500 What? Well, that's your business. In the end, 5 00:02:24.500 --> 00:02:26.000 I will speak as you wish. 00:02:27.000 --> 00:02:30.500 Pyatigorsky Alexander Moiseevich was born in 1929 in Moscow. 00:02:30.500 --> 00:02:34.000 Philosopher, orientalist, indologist. Professor at the 00:02:34.000 --> 00:02:37.000 He emigrated from the USSR in 1973. He has been living in London since 1974. 6 00:03:04.700 --> 00:03:14.400 - Why did I leave? I had a great life. Wonderful! Friends, popularity, interesting people. 7 00:03:14.400 --> 00:03:21.300 Answer: it's simple, I'm tired of everything. Not enough? And you know, this is very important. 8 00:03:21.300 --> 00:03:24.900 Let's say there, some kind of KGB surveillance, calls. Yes? 9 00:03:24.900 --> 00:03:28.200 Rubbish! Nonsense! And who doesn't? 10 00:03:28.200 --> 00:03:30.800 What? Complain every time? Yes? No. 11 00:03:31.300 --> 00:03:34.200 That's not the point. Something was ending, 12 00:03:34.200 --> 00:03:37.500 I had a feeling, in this place. 13 00:03:37.500 --> 00:03:41.500 We have to leave while the table is still set. Yes? 14 00:03:41.500 --> 00:03:44.700 Why leave when the tablecloths have already been torn off 15 00:03:44.700 --> 00:03:47.500 and everything is there, fragments are lying on the floor, 16 00:03:47.500 --> 00:03:53.200 a herring tail? It's disgusting. Yes? It is necessary to leave when 17 00:03:54.200 --> 00:04:02.800 the table is set. Bow out. Do you agree? And don't complain. 18 00:04:02.800 --> 00:04:07.300 That's what I do not tolerate, what I did not 19 00:04:07.300 --> 00:04:10.000 tolerate in my environment - complaints. 20 00:04:20.300 --> 00:04:25.600 - From here you can drive to the Atlantic, you can drive to the North Sea. 21 00:04:27.000 --> 00:04:33.100 And many people live like this. London and 22 00:04:33.100 --> 00:04:38.000 that's my feeling of living in this city. 23 00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:40.000 Of course, I'm not mine. 24 00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:43.600 -I think so, that if there is, then it is to such a minimal extent. 25 00:04:43.600 --> 00:04:47.700 - What? Friendly? - Yes. Yes. - Anywhere? - Anywhere 26 00:04:47.700 --> 00:04:54.800 - I'm talking about the city as such, which accepts absolutely everything. 27 00:04:54.800 --> 00:05:04.300 - No. London is a city of anonymity, namelessness. 28 00:05:44.300 --> 00:05:49.100 - Whenever we study history, 29 00:05:49.100 --> 00:05:51.800 that is, when we are in the realm of historicism, 30 00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:56.500 we forget about it. Because if we remembered this, then maybe 31 00:05:56.500 --> 00:05:59.300 we would be smarter, but then we would never 32 00:05:59.300 --> 00:06:02.500 be engaged in any profession. Here it is necessary... 33 00:06:02.500 --> 00:06:06.700 Here you have to choose. By the way, you have to choose constantly. 34 00:06:06.700 --> 00:06:10.500 Unfortunately, this is unavoidable. 35 00:06:13.800 --> 00:06:17.300 - I do not know modern Moscow. 36 00:06:17.300 --> 00:06:23.400 A lot of what I've seen upsets me. 00:06:23.400 --> 00:06:27.700 It is upsetting, in no case, it does not outrage. 00:06:27.700 --> 00:06:31.800 In general, you know, a philosopher should not be indignant. 00:06:31.800 --> 00:07:35.000 He can only resent himself. 00:07:11.500 --> 00:07:16.000 - Well, you know? I strongly disagree with you. I think that, 00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:17.600 on average, if we don't talk about trifles, 00:07:17.600 --> 00:07:23.100 the number of idiots among intellectuals is, 00:07:23.100 --> 00:07:29.000 more or less, a constant value. 00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:35.700 Then we can talk about the number of intellectuals, and not about the number of idiots. 45 00:07:35.700 --> 00:07:39.700 Nevertheless, the absolutization of historicism 46 00:07:39.700 --> 00:07:43.300 occurred in both cases. 47 00:07:45.300 --> 00:07:49.200 The absolutization of historicism associated with its, I would say, 48 00:07:49.200 --> 00:08:52.000 forced ontologization. 49 00:08:54.300 --> 00:09:05.200 - About my Soviet time? One phrase: nightmarish, but insanely interesting. 50 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:15.000 Enough? What if you think about it? And if you do not think, 51 00:09:15.000 --> 00:09:20.100 then only a nightmare, that is, for 99% - do not think. 52 00:09:20.100 --> 00:09:25.200 The norm of a normal person is non-thinking. Do you know this? Yes? 53 00:09:25.200 --> 00:09:29.200 So, who thought? When I read biographies and 54 00:09:29.200 --> 00:09:34.100 memoirs of Americans, Germans, Frenchmen, Englishmen, it's the same. 55 00:09:34.100 --> 00:09:41.000 It was a time of madness, madness that began at the beginning of the 20th century. 56 00:09:43.600 --> 00:09:48.100 Only, for God's sake, so that, based on what I said, you don't have 58 00:09:48.100 --> 00:09:52.300 the idea that there were some bunch of renegades 59 00:09:52.300 --> 00:09:57.200 who thought and were persecuted for it. 60 00:09:57.200 --> 00:10:05.000 Nonsense! No one knew them. They were not interesting. 61 00:10:15.000 --> 00:10:21.000 - In this sense, at least for this the parameter of historicism, 62 00:10:21.000 --> --> 00:10:28.300 which I was trying to talk about at the time, I think it is completely wrong and unsuccessful 64 00:10:28.300 --> 00:10:34.800 to speak at the conference. Do you know what the failure of my message was rooted in? 65 00:10:34.800 --> 00:10:42.200 That I was trying to make people understand what I'm saying, 67 00:10:42.200 --> 00:10:52.500 and that, pedagogically, is a disaster. The speaker should not be interested 68 00:10:52.500 --> 00:11:01.600 in whether he is understood or not. That is, you see, he can try, 69 00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:05.700 he can develop some, well, 70 00:11:05.700 --> 00:11:13.800 his own methodology understanding by them. But this is all secondary. 71 00:11:13.800 --> 00:11:19.700 Because, after all, when I'm talking to you, 73 00:11:19.700 --> 00:11:23.500 understanding what I'm telling you is your business, 74 00:11:23.500 --> 00:11:28.800 and understanding what you're telling me is my business. 75 00:11:28.800 --> 00:11:31.200 Two speakers or the audience 76 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:35.200 and the speaker cannot have two such 77 00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:44.100 attitude at the same time. Therefore, I really think 78 00:11:44.100 --> 00:11:51.000 that when you talk about something with people, then talk. 80 00:12:37.000 --> 00:12:45.500 - And I'm never late for lectures, ever. Funny, right? Almost unbelievable. 81 00:12:45.500 --> 00:12:52.500 Canceled once in my life and once in my life I forgot. 83 00:12:52.500 --> 00:13:04.000 Oh! It was... But, sorry, don't write it down, I was in love. It's happened to you. I'm sure. 84 00:14:01.000 --> 00:14:04.400 - When I talk about some philosophical 85 00:14:04.400 --> 00:14:09.100 things, and ultimately, about any things, I always 86 00:14:09.100 --> 00:14:14.200 have to keep the idea, as it were, that what 87 00:14:14.200 --> 00:14:18.700 I'm talking about is much more important than myself. 88 00:14:18.700 --> 00:14:21.500 Otherwise, what the hell should I say? Yes? 89 00:14:21.500 --> 00:14:24.700 It's not about yourself to give a lecture? 90 00:14:24.700 --> 00:14:30.400 And trying to convey your way of thinking in a conversation 91 00:14:30.400 --> 00:14:36.000 is possible only if this way is already separated from you. 92 00:14:36.000 --> 00:14:38.100 I already gave it to you. 93 00:14:38.100 --> 00:14:40.800 It, in fact, is no longer mine, and 94 00:14:40.800 --> 00:14:44.500 I do not exist at this time. 95 00:14:44.500 --> 00:14:49.700 Because if I exist at this time as I am, then I am not a philosopher. 97 00:14:49.700 --> 00:14:52.800 The philosopher should not be here at this time. 98 00:14:58.800 --> 00:14:59.000 He must be in the subject about which he thinks and in thinking. 99 00:15:08.200 --> 00:15:14.300 - I liked your free manner of taking 100 00:15:14.300 --> 00:15:18.700 people by the breasts, in Russian, shaking them hard 101 00:15:18.700 --> 00:15:22.700 and casually lowering them into the state 102 00:15:22.700 --> 00:15:26.300 in which they were before the moment when this all happened. 103 00:15:26.300 --> 00:15:29.000 Most of those people who were sitting today 104 00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:31.800 are in complete horror, a nightmare. They went to eat. 105 00:15:31.800 --> 00:15:40.400 They will eat their lunch and forget what happened. - And so it can be right? - Certainly. But how can they continue to sleep peacefully, 106 00:15:40.400 --> 00:15:44.500 drink vodka and have a snack, remembering what you said? 107 00:15:44.500 --> 00:15:51.900 - I can assure you, almost none of them, I'm sure I'm a little observant, no one drink vodka. 108 00:15:51.900 --> 00:15:55.000 Nobody. No whiskey. 109 00:16:17.500 --> 00:16:23.900 - In fact, it's not just about Russia. I can say exactly the same about England. 110 00:16:23.900 --> 00:16:29.900 How few people are interested in history, whatever - their own, 111 00:16:29.900 --> 00:16:36.000 their own family, their country, not to mention history. 112 00:16:36.000 --> 00:16:38.500 It's funny, isn't it? 113 00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:24.900 - In fact, you reduce terrorism to terrorists. 114 00:17:24.900 --> 00:17:29.800 That is, roughly speaking, completely stupid, how should one think 115 00:17:29.800 --> 00:17:34.500 in order to commit a terrorist act? Yes? 116 00:17:34.500 --> 00:17:38.300 So, that's what I want to tell you. 117 00:17:43.000 --> 00:17:52.200 There are 2 sides here: one side - 118 00:17:52.200 --> 00:17:56.600 how should one think in order to commit a terrorist act, 119 00:17:57.300 --> 00:18:03.000 how should one think in order to kill? 120 00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:08.800 But there is a second side - how should one think in order to be killed? 121 00:18:08.800 --> 00:18:12.900 There is no terrorism without victims of terrorism. 122 00:18:12.900 --> 00:18:17.200 Terrorism is prepared by the perception of those who are killed, 123 00:18:17.200 --> 00:18:22.300 and not only by the perception and thinking of the killers. Clear? 124 00:18:22.300 --> 00:18:28.000 There has not yet been a single wave of terrorism that 125 00:18:28.000 --> 00:18:32.300 has not risen in a situation where the population against which 126 00:18:32.300 --> 00:18:39.600 terror is directed has also already been prepared. 127 00:18:39.600 --> 00:18:44.100 In addition, if we want to fight it, then we 128 00:18:44.100 --> 00:18:48.300 must not look for some cretin terrorists 129 00:18:48.300 --> 00:18:51.500 in some mountains, but look for it in ourselves, 130 00:18:51.500 --> 00:18:58.000 fight with our own pitiful, passive, cowardly clichés of reaction. 131 00:18:58.000 --> 00:19:03.800 Is this not clear? Only complete historical idiots 132 00:19:03.800 --> 00:19:08.800 do not understand that the terrible Stalinist terror was 133 00:19:08.800 --> 00:19:12.300 possible because, in a sense, albeit 134 00:19:12.300 --> 00:19:16.600 figuratively (this needs to be deciphered), these people 135 00:19:16.600 --> 00:19:19.700 were ready to be killed and 136 00:19:19.700 --> 00:19:25.100 tortured and, in some I mean, they wanted it. 137 00:19:25.100 --> 00:19:31.000 They let it happen. They did it together with the executioners. 138 00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:22.400 - I worship the first jewel - 139 00:20:22.400 --> 00:20:30.300 the Buddha the Wisest. I worship the second jewel - the Great Dharma. 140 00:20:30.300 --> 00:20:35.600 I worship the first jewel - Sanga Assembly. 141 00:20:35.600 --> 00:20:42.200 Buddha Bodhisattva. And I fall at the feet of the Teacher. 142 00:20:42.200 --> 00:20:46.500 - Dear, there is not one cucumber left just like that? 143 00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:58.000 Funny, isn't it? 144 00:21:33.600 --> 00:21:36.300 - Living as if for a certain number of years, I understand that what is 145 00:21:36.300 --> 00:21:38.000 going on in it is not some kind of, 146 00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:39.200 I do not know what, it is very stupid 147 00:21:39.200 --> 00:21:40.200 that I do not know. I don't know. 148 00:21:40.200 --> 00:21:45.800 This is some kind of ongoing process. Do you understand? Yes? 149 00:21:45.800 --> 00:21:52.500 So. And... but I can't imagine, 150 00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:56.600 no matter what he does, no matter who he talks to, 152 00:21:56.700 --> 00:22:01.500 that there's something inside him, some kind of (He calls it work. Call it whatever you want.) 154 00:22:01.500 --> 00:22:05.000 that it stops. It never stops. 155 00:22:12.000 --> 00:22:15.000 And in this sense, too, all this is very stupid. 156 00:22:16.300 --> 00:22:19.800 I understand that even if he gets involved in some situations, 158 00:22:19.800 --> 00:22:23.700 that is, I force him or something forces him, well, it happens, 159 00:22:23.700 --> 00:22:29.400 well, he lives here, walks on this earth, it’s all the same, as it were, with him, 161 00:22:29.4200 --> 00:22:37.000 this person, in fact, has the only and main pleasure - this is to think. 163 00:22:37.000 --> 00:22:42.000 I do not quite understand this pleasure, 164 00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:47.000 that is, some kind of incessant. 165 00:23:38.000 --> 00:23:41.800 - Speaking seriously or, if you like, not seriously, 166 00:23:41.800 --> 00:23:48.000 everything depends on what kind of philosophy you have. What is yours? 00:23:48.000 --> 00:23:53.300 - What's yours? - My? Mine is extremely ridiculous, but I love her. 167 00:23:53.300 --> 00:23:56.500 Ridiculous, in the etymological sense of the word. 168 00:23:57.500 --> 00:24:01.100 Badly molded, ugly. I think that in my philosophy 169 00:24:01.100 --> 00:24:07.300 it is very difficult for a person to be at home. He's in a foreign place. 170 00:24:08.900 --> 00:24:12.600 Because (does it interest you?) for me, 171 00:24:12.600 --> 00:24:18.500 philosophy, in principle, by definition, is a foreign place. 172 00:24:18.500 --> 00:24:26.500 If it's yours, get out of here. An staked out, mastered 173 00:24:26.500 --> 00:24:29.800 place cannot be a place of philosophy. 174 00:24:32.000 --> 00:24:35.500 No one lives in this place. 175 00:24:35.500 --> 00:24:40.000 There's only air and nothing else but air. 176 00:24:42.000 --> 00:24:50.000 There you can breathe the cold clean air of your Freedom. 177 00:25:00.100 --> 00:25:10.900 And so that at the same time - Homeland, family, nation, language, world - no. ...Universe. 178 00:25:10.900 --> 00:25:15.000 Well, Universe, okay! I think we'll make peace.