WEBVTT Kind: captions Language: ru-RU 1 00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:17.600 - What I love most in life is 00:00:22.700 --> 00:00:32.000 the possibility and reality of listening and talking. 00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:35.000 conversation with Alexander Pyatigorsky 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:39.500 PART II 00:00:40.500 --> 00:00:43.500 St. Petersburg, winter 2001 2 00:00:44.100 --> 00:00:47.000 - Come here. 3 00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:52.500 And then we'll leave right away. Well done! They've already arrived. 4 00:00:52.500 --> 00:00:59.000 Here you see what kind of men. Women should just stop breathing. Look. 00:01:20.500 --> 00:01:25.500 About Yuri Mikhailovich Lotman 6 00:01:27.600 --> 00:01:32.300 - That's what I told Lotman. He says, "Well, Moiseich, will you come to the funeral?" 7 00:01:32.300 --> 00:01:37.800 I say, "No. I'll come to you now. Now." 00:01:37.800 --> 00:01:40.900 No, no. I didn't go to the funeral. 9 00:01:40.900 --> 00:01:46.000 I was with him on purpose before his death, and we sat with him all night. 11 00:01:46.000 --> 00:01:49.500 He was already very weak, 12 00:01:49.500 --> 00:01:53.500 and, nevertheless, we talked about different things 13 00:01:53.500 --> 00:01:56.500 (In Tartu, I mean. I went there. 00:01:59.400 --> 00:02:03.000 You see, even now, maybe it will appear in my memory. 14 00:02:03.000 --> 00:02:09.000 Потом уже появляется. Это было слишком недавно.) all night. 15 00:02:12.000 --> 00:02:19.000 But there were definitely more people 16 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:24.300 and he didn't talk about what I knew he wanted to talk about. 18 00:02:24.300 --> 00:02:48.500 He didn't talk about his own at all. 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:35.500 It was impossible. 19 00:02:44.500 --> 00:02:48.700 It is very important to remember here 00:02:48.700 --> 00:02:54.300 that Lotman was a man of a rare breed. 20 00:02:54.300 --> 00:02:58.600 This is from the people around me. He was a happy man. 21 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:06.000 That's he was happy and all! It's indecent. 22 00:03:12.700 --> 00:03:16.000 Yuri Mikhailovich once told me that he was just uncomfortable. 23 00:03:17.500 --> 00:03:23.000 There, Seryozha, his friend, came to complain. There, Kolya came to complain. 24 00:03:23.000 --> 00:03:26.400 And he said: "But I'm uncomfortable all the time." Why? 25 00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:35.500 And it was, just in the midst of very difficult troubles for Yuri Mikhailovich. 27 00:03:40.300 --> 00:03:44.000 He says: "But it's a shame all the same. Yes?" I say "No". 00:03:47.000 --> 00:03:50.000 But this, apparently, is a shame in Russia. Yes? 28 00:03:50.000 --> 00:03:54.000 Well, what can I do? You have to lie. 00:03:54.000 --> 00:03:59.600 Such a serious facial expression to do. 00:03:59.600 --> 00:04:02.100 This is Luda says me. She says: 29 00:04:02.100 --> 00:04:10.000 "Are you now specifically mug in a serious way set up a sad one?" 30 00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:26.000 Once Arnis complained to me about life. Not once, but quite recently. 31 00:04:26.000 --> 00:04:34.000 He says: "Let me concentrate now. I still want to tell you something." 33 00:04:34.000 --> 00:04:42.900 He says: “But you still have three more bottles on the balcony? We didn’t drink them, did we?” 35 00:04:42.900 --> 00:04:45.800 I say, "Yes." He says: 36 00:04:45.800 --> 00:04:51.000 "And I still have fish left." But who would believe him? 37 00:04:51.000 --> 00:04:54.500 But the same person can also suffer? Yes? 38 00:04:54.500 --> 00:05:01.000 But no one believes him anymore. Sometimes it's just painfully annoying. 40 00:05:07.000 --> 00:05:12.000 I also irritated the head of the ward 41 00:05:12.000 --> 00:05:18.000 more than a year ago when I was brought to the hospital in London. 42 00:05:23.600 --> 00:05:29.500 "What? Are you in pain? yes?" I think so: "What should I tell him? 43 00:05:29.500 --> 00:05:35.000 Nevertheless, I still have to say that it hurts." But... 44 00:05:37.000 --> 00:05:45.000 You know, I saw Lotman when he was in fucking real... I mean, physically. 45 00:05:49.500 --> 00:06:03.000 He says, "Yes, Moiseevich, you see," he says, "how it is here... 46 00:06:03.000 --> 00:06:09.000 Listen, did these idiots finally feed you or not?" 47 00:06:12.400 --> 00:06:18.500 He was a soldier indeed. 00:06:18.500 --> 00:06:24.000 You will go on the attack anyway, whether you are happy or unhappy. 48 00:06:26.000 --> 00:06:30.000 - Is it better to be happy then? - Well, yes. 49 00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:42.000 - Very funny. Yes? But this is annoying. 00:06:42.000 --> 00:06:45.000 - Other's? - Other's. 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:55.700 - Or, as one of my late friends, 50 00:06:55.700 --> 00:07:03.800 much older than me, said when he was very young: 51 00:07:03.800 --> 00:07:10.000 "Well, gentlemen, let's put on the tailcoat of misfortune." 00:07:15.500 --> 00:07:18.500 And the death of friends whom you still haven't seen for a long time... 52 00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:24.000 - Saddens. Only saddens. - Why? 53 00:07:24.000 --> 00:07:34.000 - But why? Well, just the absence of some points 54 00:07:34.000 --> 00:07:39.000 in oneself, in one's own thinking. 55 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:42.500 Biography has nothing to do with it. 00:07:42.500 --> 00:07:49.800 ...in my own mind... ...in mine. 00:07:49.800 --> 00:07:54.700 - But you can, as it were, think about them without them? 56 00:07:54.700 --> 00:08:10.500 - I can. But... But still, there is no 57 00:08:10.500 --> 00:08:21.000 such reinforcing impulse here. 58 00:08:21.000 --> 00:08:27.600 No. But, in this case, I'm talking not only about those who left, 59 00:08:27.600 --> 00:08:32.500 but also about those who simply stopped being friends. 60 00:08:32.500 --> 00:08:39.000 There are those too. Not much, but there is. 61 00:08:43.500 --> 00:08:47.500 Alexander Moiseevich, is it necessary to prepare for death? 62 00:08:56.000 --> 00:09:00.000 - I think it's necessary, 00:09:00.000 --> 00:09:13.700 but... ...don't want. 63 00:09:13.700 --> 00:09:20.000 I don't like this necessary work. 64 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:25.000 I know it's necessary. 65 00:09:25.000 --> 00:09:33.000 Well, why lie if I don't want to. 66 00:09:41.300 --> 00:09:48.000 So, when Gandhi writes about his father (do you remember?), 67 00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:53.400 that a few hours before his death, 68 00:09:53.400 --> 00:09:59.700 he asked to continuously read the Bhagavad Gita aloud to him. 69 00:09:59.700 --> 00:10:06.000 So he read it continuously during his lifetime. So, this is how it should be. 70 00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:21.000 - Something especially... Something especially important for death cannot be ranked. 72 00:10:21.000 --> 00:10:27.000 On the contrary, something must continue until the last moment. 73 00:10:29.500 --> 00:10:37.000 One of my friends worked out in detail how everything should be: 75 00:10:37.000 --> 00:10:42.200 how he should be dressed, how you should put his in a coffin, 76 00:10:42.200 --> 00:10:52.000 which coffin, what prayers to read, who should be present. 77 00:10:54.500 --> 00:11:01.000 No. I think it probably 78 00:11:01.000 --> 00:11:06.000 makes sense, but maybe not for my type of people. 00:11:07.500 --> 00:11:12.500 So you did not go to the funeral of your friend Merab Mamardashvili ... 79 00:11:14.000 --> 00:11:17.900 - Because there is always a risk 80 00:11:17.900 --> 00:11:23.400 that it is wrong. 81 00:11:23.400 --> 00:11:33.500 And it's not about fear of risk, it's about my own, my, inability. 82 00:11:33.500 --> 00:11:45.800 Here, you see, I would be ready to go to participate in the ritual. 83 00:11:45.800 --> 00:11:50.000 But it wasn't a ritual. 84 00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:57.400 That's the point. After all, what, of course, is the main feature of the ritual? 85 00:11:57.400 --> 00:12:01.000 You didn't invent the ritual. It is. 86 00:12:07.000 --> 00:12:12.000 And it wasn't a ritual. 87 00:12:12.000 --> 00:12:17.800 In such cases, people cannot perform the ritual. 88 00:12:17.800 --> 00:12:23.500 Firstly, because they don't know ritual. 89 00:12:23.500 --> 00:12:28.000 And secondly, because even if they knew, 90 00:12:28.000 --> 00:12:33.000 they do not want it. 91 00:12:40.500 --> 00:12:46.000 No. I'm in favor of a wake just now. 92 00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:49.500 But for such... Do you understand? Yes? 93 00:12:49.500 --> 00:12:58.000 Quietly to sit down, remember, drink, eat. 00:12:59.500 --> 00:13:03.500 Can the death of our friends teach us any lesson? 94 00:13:04.800 --> 00:13:09.400 - Maybe. But this is the rarest case. 00:13:09.400 --> 00:13:15.400 - Why is that? 00:13:13.000 --> 00:13:17.400 - But it's hard for me to answer this question. 95 00:13:17.400 --> 00:13:20.500 But again a cliched thought comes to mind, 96 00:13:18.100 --> 00:13:23.600 not mine, of course. 97 00:13:23.600 --> 00:13:27.400 My thought would be even more cliched, probably. 98 00:13:27.400 --> 00:13:29.900 Who knows? Maybe that's how everything is arranged and arranged correctly. 99 00:13:34.900 --> 00:13:39.000 Again, this is a very rare case. 100 00:13:43.700 --> 00:13:46.700 This is a very rare case. 00:13:55.500 --> 00:14:03.000 But I repeat, just now you told me about your feeling when you find out about Merab's death. 103 00:14:03.000 --> 00:14:13.000 That's the same feeling I have... It was a little different for me, but, in fact, the same. 105 00:14:13.000 --> 00:14:17.000 ... could have arisen only after Merab's death. 106 00:14:22.000 --> 00:14:31.500 You see, this is very important, because people like Merab, 107 00:14:31.500 --> 00:14:36.400 when they die, whenever they die, 109 00:14:36.400 --> 00:14:44.000 they have eternal insurance in their pocket, an insurance policy. 110 00:14:44.000 --> 00:14:55.600 After all, you see, someone lived right, someone lived wrong, 111 00:14:54.500 --> 00:15:01.400 receives an insurance premium, does not receive an insurance premium. But people like Merab... 113 00:15:02.100 --> 00:15:07.500 He was a man of thought. And to say: "He thought it right or wrong" 114 00:15:07.500 --> 00:15:19.000 is ridiculous. That's why you have insurance in your pocket. You'll get it anyway. 116 00:15:19.000 --> 00:15:25.100 But such people are really very few. 117 00:15:42.000 --> 00:15:49.100 In general, I think, if it is possible to utter 118 00:15:49.100 --> 00:15:55.000 this stylistically disgusting phrase, 119 00:15:55.000 --> 00:16:00.000 Merab was just a living real example of thinking for me. 120 00:16:07.000 --> 00:16:11.000 A man walks and thinks at the same time. 00:16:13.500 --> 00:16:17.500 - But not in the sense that he walks down the street and sees nothing? 00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:22.400 -No, no, no. He was thinking at the same time. 121 00:16:22.400 --> 00:16:32.700 And by the way, thinking, it is impossible not to see anything, that's the point. 123 00:16:32.700 --> 00:16:38.000 If the thought closes the houses, then it means you didn't think. 124 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:43.000 I remember this when 125 00:16:43.000 --> 00:16:47.000 we worked with him on "Symbol and Consciousness" ... 126 00:16:56.400 --> 00:17:03.000 - Alexander Moiseevich, did you understand what Merab Konstantinovich was saying? 127 00:17:06.000 --> 00:17:13.000 - At the level at which he was saying it, yes. 128 00:17:16.400 --> 00:17:23.400 In this case, I think, in our case, as it were, understanding - 130 00:17:23.400 --> 00:17:31.200 it was the ability to say the same thing in a different way. 131 00:17:31.200 --> 00:17:37.000 Sometimes we would hang out like this for two hours. 132 00:17:42.400 --> 00:17:56.000 And sometimes, simply anticipating the genius of Dmitry Alexandrovich Prigov, 133 00:17:58.000 --> 00:18:04.000 he suddenly ended up with some very funny ... 134 00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:08.700 I remember him once saying to me: 136 00:18:08.700 --> 00:18:17.500 "And this is the basis of the spiritual life." 137 00:18:17.500 --> 00:18:23.800 Then he says: "And what does spiritual life mean?" 138 00:18:23.800 --> 00:18:30.000 And he says, "It doesn't mean anything." And we started laughing. 139 00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:33.000 But this is also understanding. 00:18:33.500 --> 00:18:37.500 Did you take an example from Merab? 140 00:18:40.200 --> 00:18:48.000 - You know, I think, in some respects, I took it and very successfully. 141 00:18:53.200 --> 00:18:57.500 I think now, in one thing 142 00:18:57.500 --> 00:19:06.000 I tried to behave the same way, at least outwardly, to behave with other people like him. 144 00:19:08.000 --> 00:19:11.000 Categorically failed. 145 00:19:14.800 --> 00:19:19.900 Here I remember how he told me: "But set yourself up. Look. 146 00:19:19.900 --> 00:19:29.500 Now one person will come, you somehow set yourself up." 147 00:19:29.500 --> 00:19:36.800 I was tuning in. Of course, if he made such warnings, 149 00:19:36.800 --> 00:19:48.000 then the very fact meant that, at least, some disgusting bastard would come, 150 00:19:48.500 --> 00:19:52.000 and at worst, even worse. And so he succeeded. 151 00:19:52.000 --> 00:20:01.000 He was even, amiable, sympathetic. 152 00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:05.000 Here - no, as in many other things. 153 00:20:12.500 --> 00:20:16.000 Well, I do not know. But some things, 154 00:20:19.500 --> 00:20:25.000 of course, had a very strong effect on me. 155 00:20:31.100 --> 00:20:35.000 That's when he told me (but he told me this many times): 156 00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:45.500 "Listen, do not interfere in someone else's life and, above all, in your own." 157 00:20:45.500 --> 00:20:52.000 Let, let go and someone else's life and your own. 158 00:20:52.000 --> 00:20:58.000 I say: "But in the end, something must be done here in order, 159 00:20:58.000 --> 00:21:01.000 for example, to stop this disgrace." 161 00:21:01.000 --> 00:21:10.400 He says, "Don't. Stop." 00:21:10.400 --> 00:21:21.000 That is, he was the first who really very convincingly explained to me 162 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:30.000 that some things, in order for them ... of course, bad or not very good, 164 00:21:30.000 --> 00:21:34.900 in order for them to stop, they must be done. 165 00:21:37.600 --> 00:21:46.800 Well, in any case, in several cases in my life, 166 00:21:49.500 --> 00:21:58.000 it just worked out according to Merab, as in the picture. 167 00:21:58.000 --> 00:22:03.000 And I, for example, say to him: "Listen, I somehow ... 168 00:22:03.000 --> 00:22:13.200 But I'm worried." He said: "So, me too. Well, that's okay". 169 00:22:13.200 --> 00:22:18.000 He was a person who gave me an example 00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:24.500 of a frivolous attitude to my own feelings and experiences, 170 00:22:24.500 --> 00:22:35.000 without which, I think, there can be no real personality at all. 172 00:22:35.000 --> 00:22:39.000 Because a person who takes himself seriously, his feelings, 173 00:22:39.000 --> 00:22:45.000 experiences, beliefs, he is no longer a philosopher. 174 00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:52.000 I think you already understand. Every hare knows this. 00:22:54.500 --> 00:22:59.500 How do you feel about the talk that Merab Mamardashvili was killed? 175 00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:08.500 - Can I give you a parallel? 176 00:23:08.500 --> 00:23:14.000 Well, this is, as it were, a quote from one person, 177 00:23:14.000 --> 00:23:21.200 one Briton, who, indeed, 178 00:23:21.200 --> 00:23:29.500 spent half his life on a complete biography ... Do you know what it means to write a complete biography? 179 00:23:29.500 --> 00:23:35.500 ... on a complete biography of Turgenev. 180 00:23:35.500 --> 00:23:44.000 And so he complained that he could never understand the Russian character. 181 00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:52.500 And he has this essay "Death of the Block". 182 00:23:52.500 --> 00:24:01.200 And there: the news of Blok's death reached Moscow. 184 00:24:01.200 --> 00:24:18.500 And one of the most remarkable intellectual poets of Moscow calls Gorky 185 00:24:18.500 --> 00:24:26.500 and says: "It was you who killed Blok." He says: 186 00:24:26.500 --> 00:24:31.600 "In Russia, a person has already lost the right to simply die. 187 00:24:31.600 --> 00:24:38.200 Someone must kill him." This is typical intellectual nonsense. 188 00:24:38.200 --> 00:24:45.500 But as much as Alexander Alexandrovich did for his own death, 190 00:24:45.500 --> 00:24:49.700 the gigantic energy that he expended in order 191 00:24:49.700 --> 00:24:55.000 to simply, literally (I think, physically) kill himself, 192 00:24:55.000 --> 00:25:03.900 so it would be enough, I don't know, to sweep an entire infantry platoon off the face of the earth. 194 00:25:03.900 --> 00:25:09.000 No. This is not discussed, in the case of Merab. 195 00:25:09.000 --> 00:25:12.000 There is always someone in Russia. 196 00:25:12.000 --> 00:25:17.800 Well, he could not stand the pressure of social conditions on him and died. 197 00:25:17.800 --> 00:25:24.600 In the case of other people, he began to drink bitterly. 198 00:25:24.600 --> 00:25:28.400 Although known, the tendency of many people to drink bitterly 199 00:25:28.400 --> 00:25:32.000 under any social regimes. 200 00:25:32.000 --> 00:25:37.800 In the third row of cases, of course, - to get into the Crazy House. 201 00:25:41.000 --> 00:25:45.000 No. This is later, and to put it mildly, 202 00:25:45.000 --> 00:25:49.000 not gently, I have already expressed in one word, 203 00:25:49.000 --> 00:25:53.000 it's just bottomless.