WEBVTT Kind: captions Language: ru-RU 1 00:00:14.000 --> 00:00:17.600 - What I love most in life is 00:00:22.700 --> 00:00:32.000 the possibility and reality of listening and talking. 00:00:32.000 --> 00:00:35.000 conversation with Alexander Pyatigorsky 00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:39.500 PART III 00:00:40.000 --> 00:00:43.500 Delhi, 2003 2 00:00:57.600 --> 00:01:01.400 - Krishna arranged it all on purpose. 3 00:01:01.400 --> 00:01:04.000 That is, as it were, he is also a director 4 00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:07.100 who has made himself the main actor 5 00:01:07.100 --> 00:01:11.300 because he is a Great Director of the Universe, 6 00:01:11.300 --> 00:01:16.200 who plays all the roles in all the dramas. 7 00:01:16.200 --> 00:01:21.000 And he, in this sense, this is one point of view, 8 00:01:21.000 --> 00:01:25.800 created Arjuna with his condition. 9 00:01:25.800 --> 00:01:31.000 He, by the way, invented and started the whole war, 10 00:01:31.000 --> 00:01:37.700 because, as it were, he believed that after all, all these people, 11 00:01:37.700 --> 00:01:42.400 all these kingdoms and everything else, all these men and women, 12 00:01:42.400 --> 00:01:45.500 can't do anything at all, 13 00:01:45.500 --> 00:01:51.200 they don't know anything about themselves or the world, 14 00:01:51.200 --> 00:01:55.500 that it is necessary to do something - 15 00:01:55.500 --> 00:01:59.600 to arrange a break in their normal existence. 00:02:00.500 --> 00:02:03.500 About the Dharma field 16 00:02:11.200 --> 00:02:14.200 - I want to ask. 19 00:02:55.200 --> 00:02:58.600 This field has its own... 20 00:02:58.600 --> 00:03:05.000 What this field was here, under our feet now, 21 00:03:05.000 --> 00:03:07.800 has its own different meaning. 22 00:03:07.800 --> 00:03:14.300 For all the people who gathered there, for hundreds of thousands 23 00:03:14.300 --> 00:03:19.000 of friends and enemies, relatives, soldiers, officers, 24 00:03:19.000 --> 00:03:25.000 military leaders, this is a battlefield.Because they don't know. 25 00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:28.800 They live a simple life 26 00:03:28.800 --> 00:03:33.000 where peace is peace, war is war, 27 00:03:33.000 --> 00:03:37.900 the death of a warrior is the death of a warrior, victory is victory, 28 00:03:37.900 --> 00:03:43.500 and defeat is defeat. They do not know that at the same time 29 00:03:43.500 --> 00:03:54.700 the same place is invisible to the eye places 31 00:03:54.700 --> 00:04:01.500 and spaces of the dharma of the highest divine world order. 32 00:04:03.500 --> 00:04:07.400 As you and I, staying in some place 33 00:04:08.400 --> 00:04:12.700 at some time, do not know some hidden from the eyes, 34 00:04:12.700 --> 00:04:18.200 from sight, from hearing the true meaning of that place 35 00:04:18.200 --> 00:04:26.100 and that time, which we consider to be the place and time of our stay 36 00:04:26.100 --> 00:04:32.000 in time and space, that is, due. 37 00:04:32.000 --> 00:04:36.100 We only know the circumstances of life - someone needs to be killed, 38 00:04:36.100 --> 00:04:39.200 someone needs to be saved, 39 00:04:39.200 --> 00:04:44.000 something needs to be captured, something will have to be given away. 40 00:04:44.000 --> 00:04:49.000 But all this has this karmic meaning. 41 00:04:49.000 --> 00:04:57.400 This is the second, true, meaning of everything that is happening. This is the dharma. 42 00:04:57.400 --> 00:05:01.500 Therefore, what the Kuru field is for everyone, 43 00:05:01.500 --> 00:05:07.000 then all the surrounding peasants know is the Kuru field, 44 00:05:07.000 --> 00:05:10.000 the field of the Kuru family. 45 00:05:10.000 --> 00:05:15.500 And no one knows that it is at the same time a field of dharma, 46 00:05:15.500 --> 00:05:21.500 a field of manifestation of cosmic divine forces. 00:05:23.500 --> 00:05:26.500 About higher knowledge 47 00:05:27.500 --> 00:05:35.000 - At some average level, some thinkers, 48 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:44.700 and not those who know (remember the difference?) there is an idea 49 00:05:44.700 --> 00:05:48.000 that besides his knowledge and the knowledge of other people of any level, 50 00:05:50.900 --> 00:05:57.100 there is also some higher knowledge 51 00:05:57.100 --> 00:06:03.600 of everything as it is. Is it clear how it is? 52 00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:08.100 And that's it. As it is. How no one touches him. That one. The knowledge about it. 54 00:06:08.100 --> 00:06:14.500 The world as it is, not the way you want it, you don't want it, you're afraid, you want it, 56 00:06:14.500 --> 00:06:19.600 but the way it is, together with you, an idiot. 57 00:06:19.600 --> 00:06:31.000 And this, in some religions, the highest knowledge is equal... 58 00:06:31.000 --> 00:06:35.700 (and practically in the Bhagavad Gita, I think this is one of the distinguishing features 59 00:06:35.700 --> 00:06:41.000 of ancient Indian philosophizing), 60 00:06:41.000 --> 00:06:50.000 ... in some texts, this higher knowledge is equal to what it is about. 61 00:06:50.000 --> 00:06:54.300 For example, the highest knowledge about the Atman is the Atman. 63 00:06:54.300 --> 00:06:59.000 If you have reached the highest knowledge of the Atman, 64 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:03.400 then it and its object is the knowledge of the Atman Jnana. 00:07:03.400 --> 00:07:07.000 Both the object and the Atman are one. 65 00:07:07.000 --> 00:07:15.500 But, in principle, this is exactly the position of higher knowledge 67 00:07:15.500 --> 00:07:20.400 that you know about and it arises in different religions 68 00:07:20.400 --> 00:07:25.000 (right now I'm talking about religions). Do not forget that the Bhagavad Gita 69 00:07:25.000 --> 00:07:29.500 is an instruction on how to honor God Krishna, 70 00:07:29.500 --> 00:07:37.700 and how to think about God Krishna, and how to treat God Krishna, how to love God Krishna. 72 00:07:37.700 --> 00:07:43.400 And so, in some religions, 73 00:07:43.400 --> 00:07:51.000 I would even say in all, when the development of religion, 74 00:07:51.000 --> 00:07:58.600 religious thinking reaches a certain point, to a certain level, 75 00:07:58.600 --> 00:08:03.300 the idea of absolute higher knowledge, equal to the subject 76 00:08:03.300 --> 00:08:07.000 of this knowledge, invariably appears. 00:08:07.500 --> 00:08:12.500 - Can the thought of death and death be the same thing? 77 00:08:13.800 --> 00:08:20.000 - This is the highest stage of yoga. This is when the yogi is so prepared!... 78 00:08:23.600 --> 00:08:30.000 It could be. But this already, as it were, assumes that someone, I don't even say a person... 80 00:08:33.500 --> 00:08:37.500 - And then what will happen? - With whom? 81 00:08:37.500 --> 00:08:45.000 - What will happen to the world when the higher mind thinks death? 82 00:08:45.000 --> 00:08:52.400 - Well, the world will be enlightened in this way. 83 00:08:52.400 --> 00:08:58.200 And according to, say, some commentators of the Bhagavad Gita, 84 00:08:58.200 --> 00:09:02.300 if this happened in many people, 85 00:09:02.300 --> 00:09:06.200 then society and material life would be completely different 86 00:09:06.200 --> 00:09:10.000 and, as it is written there, infinitely prosperous. 00:09:10.500 --> 00:09:13.500 Ladakh, 2003. 00:09:13.500 --> 00:09:19.500 Alexander Moiseevich, do you take yourself seriously? 00:09:20.400 --> 00:09:23.400 - What? Are you crazy?! Of course not! 88 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:34.000 I can take some seriously... I can, 89 00:09:36.400 --> 00:09:42.500 that is, it can happen... some situations in which I refuse 90 00:09:42.500 --> 00:09:48.000 or some people who find themselves with me in these situations. 92 00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:52.000 But myself... The Lord is with you! Of course not. 93 00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:54.000 - And how do you perceive yourself? - Very often, nothing. 94 00:09:56.800 --> 00:10:01.500 - That is, there is no such object for reflection for you "I myself"? 95 00:10:01.500 --> 00:10:06.900 - It happens, but, I would say, rarely. 96 00:10:06.900 --> 00:10:10.800 I would even say rarely. Things happen. 97 00:10:10.800 --> 00:10:13.800 But for this I need to focus specifically. 99 00:10:39.900 --> 00:10:46.800 - So there is practically no such object as yourself for your thinking? 100 00:10:46.800 --> 00:10:51.000 - It may be, but it's rare. 101 00:10:51.000 --> 00:11:00.000 No, it certainly happens. 102 00:11:00.000 --> 00:11:04.700 But I want you to pay attention, 103 00:11:04.700 --> 00:11:07.000 even to this grammar: 104 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:13.700 may be, it happens, but it is not some important part 105 00:11:13.700 --> 00:11:18.000 of my mental existence. 00:11:18.500 --> 00:11:24.500 Tell me, do you find it funny to think about yourself? 106 00:11:26.000 --> 00:11:34.000 - Fun, like any other state of mind, 107 00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:38.900 is always, as it were, two-dimensional. 108 00:11:38.900 --> 00:11:42.000 On the one hand, it is 109 00:11:44.600 --> 00:11:50.800 a thought about something, and on the other hand, 110 00:11:50.800 --> 00:11:57.500 because the thought about something, it itself 111 00:11:57.500 --> 00:12:00.500 does not yet generate such a state of fun, 112 00:12:00.500 --> 00:12:08.400 there must still be some kind of addition. 113 00:12:08.400 --> 00:12:13.400 For me, the idea of something ridiculous, funny is good, 115 00:12:13.400 --> 00:12:19.000 but real fun, in fits of which you have seen me, 116 00:12:19.000 --> 00:12:22.000 sometimes comes over me, you know, 117 00:12:22.000 --> 00:12:26.200 I just can't do anything for days. 118 00:12:26.200 --> 00:12:34.500 And so, this is the first, this is some kind of funny thought about something, that is, in terms of content, 120 00:12:34.500 --> 00:12:36.700 but the second, and maybe even the main thing, 121 00:12:38.600 --> 00:12:44.400 is, in my case, since you are asking me, and not in general, 122 00:12:44.400 --> 00:12:45.600 in my case it is always accompanied by some kind of liberation from myself, from thoughts about myself, 124 00:12:52.800 --> 00:13:01.400 generally turning myself off from the field of reality. 125 00:13:01.400 --> 00:13:05.400 Because true, sincere fun, 126 00:13:05.400 --> 00:13:12.000 of course, necessarily includes liberation from oneself, 128 00:13:14.500 --> 00:13:18.800 from thoughts and from feelings. But we are serious - 129 00:13:18.800 --> 00:13:26.900 we are average people, that is, average non-thinking people. 130 00:13:26.900 --> 00:13:35.700 When we are serious, our seriousness is always connected with seriousness about ourselves. 132 00:13:35.700 --> 00:13:40.600 Well, there are so many examples from conversations, from literature, 133 00:13:40.600 --> 00:13:46.500 when someone gets angry and says, "Well, when will you start taking the situation seriously?" 135 00:13:46.500 --> 00:13:50.400 Then in fact, it is very easy to decipher: 136 00:13:50.400 --> 00:13:57.500 "When will you start mentally including yourself in this situation?" 137 00:13:57.500 --> 00:13:59.600 Is that clear? Yes? 138 00:13:59.600 --> 00:14:04.900 And so seriousness excludes fun true. 139 00:14:04.900 --> 00:14:10.000 In addition, it excludes philosophicness. 00:14:11.500 --> 00:14:18.500 Is it true that sometimes you wanted not to think, but just to sneak away? 140 00:14:19.400 --> 00:14:24.500 - Well, no. I just felt like a complete idiot at the same time. 141 00:14:24.500 --> 00:14:31.500 Yes. Here is such the lowest level, that is, an objective idiot. 142 00:14:31.500 --> 00:14:41.600 And so, you understand, here, of course, some laws 143 00:14:41.600 --> 00:14:51.000 (in quotation marks), some laws of thinking begin to take effect. 144 00:14:51.000 --> 00:14:55.000 Thinking, in general, has no laws. I am talking specifically about specific situations 145 00:14:55.000 --> 00:15:04.000 in which thinking has to look for another angle of consideration again. 147 00:15:07.800 --> 00:15:14.600 Because if you just admit yourself to be a complete or objective idiot, then you can get stuck on it. 149 00:15:14.600 --> 00:15:19.700 Here it is necessary to get out of this, you need not only to recognize yourself 150 00:15:19.700 --> 00:15:23.300 as an objective idiot (because it is necessary), 152 00:15:23.300 --> 00:15:29.000 but also immediately start looking for some mental moves. 153 00:15:29.000 --> 00:15:32.400 Well, do you want me to give you an example? 154 00:15:32.400 --> 00:15:37.800 You know that in my life, already during our friendship, 156 00:15:37.800 --> 00:15:44.100 there were troubles. Is it known? Yes? 157 00:15:44.100 --> 00:15:52.000 I remember that a friend of mine, when I was practically homeless, 159 00:15:55.400 --> 00:16:03.300 decided to interest a very rich man in me. 160 00:16:03.300 --> 00:16:08.200 Did I tell you about this? Yes? This is a very funny story. 162 00:16:10.200 --> 00:16:18.000 And so he began to talk about me with his friend, 163 00:16:21.500 --> 00:16:27.800 a solid and not poor Jew, but not that wildly rich. 165 00:16:32.500 --> 00:16:40.000 According to my friend, because it was with him that he wanted to talk about my condition, practically homeless. 167 00:16:40.000 --> 00:16:46.000 He doesn't have that many, there were 30-40 houses in London. 169 00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:50.500 Not God knows what! Not Rockefeller. 170 00:16:50.500 --> 00:16:59.200 And so, very carefully, he drove up to his friend and said: 171 00:16:59.200 --> 00:17:02.200 "You see, this is the situation. My friend... 172 00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:08.700 (By the way, we are also familiar with him)...my friend, a Jew." 173 00:17:08.700 --> 00:17:11.700 This must be said. 00:17:11.700 --> 00:17:17.400 A Jew to a Jew, according to the idea, you may have heard, must definitely help. 175 00:17:17.400 --> 00:17:25.000 I think that non-Jews exaggerate this very much. 176 00:17:25.000 --> 00:17:33.700 He says, "Listen, can't you let him live in one of your apartments 178 00:17:33.700 --> 00:17:41.000 that are not yet rented, not sold, not used?" 179 00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:48.400 He said: "Absolutely not." He said: "This man (he meant me) 180 00:17:48.400 --> 00:17:54.400 is not a good Jew." Why? 181 00:17:54.400 --> 00:17:59.000 Because a good Jew in this position will not refuse. 182 00:17:59.000 --> 00:18:05.600 So he is a bad Jew and probably a bad person, 183 00:18:05.600 --> 00:18:10.000 whom, in the subtext, God is justly punishing. 184 00:18:14.000 --> 00:18:20.400 Of course, my reaction was vulgar, the reaction of an objective idiot. 185 00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:23.400 I tell my friend: 186 00:18:23.400 --> 00:18:27.200 "Well, Tudor, old man. Well, what are you doing?" I say: 187 00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:33.000 "He's just a stingy Jew, and he also lecturing morals." 188 00:18:36.000 --> 00:18:39.700 But! I remember going home after that, 189 00:18:39.700 --> 00:18:48.300 I began to think that maybe this gentleman, the landlord, 191 00:18:48.300 --> 00:18:56.600 without knowing it, helped me find, return 192 00:18:56.600 --> 00:19:01.800 to another angle of view again, namely, to remember 193 00:19:01.800 --> 00:19:06.600 that my state of homelessness and disaster... 194 00:19:06.600 --> 00:19:10.400 Who produced it? I am myself, 195 00:19:12.100 --> 00:19:16.000 with my way of thinking. And there is something to think about. 197 00:19:18.500 --> 00:19:22.000 And then I realized that, on the one hand, 198 00:19:22.600 --> 00:19:27.000 there is such a point of view. I have to seriously consider it. 199 00:19:27.000 --> 00:19:31.500 I did it all, not John Jones 200 00:19:31.500 --> 00:19:38.700 and not Abrasha Abramson, namely Alexander Moiseevich Pyatigorsky. 201 00:19:38.700 --> 00:19:46.000 I prepared this for myself. Then, if that's the case, I need to use it now. 203 00:19:46.000 --> 00:19:52.600 And this person helped me objectively with his refusal... What? - Use it. 204 00:19:52.600 --> 00:19:57.700 ...use, find a new angle of view. Yes. 205 00:19:57.700 --> 00:20:02.900 That maybe he is, in a sense, right. 206 00:20:04.900 --> 00:20:12.000 This... That's why I started out today's conversation with the fact 208 00:20:14.700 --> 00:20:19.300 that a person who wants to think often finds himself in the position 209 00:20:19.300 --> 00:20:23.400 of needing help. That is, he needs help, 210 00:20:23.400 --> 00:20:26.700 say something like that or ask something like that... 211 00:20:26.700 --> 00:20:30.500 That is, we return to the rort. 212 00:20:30.500 --> 00:20:35.900 That is, to find such a life situation. Because the situation, 213 00:20:35.900 --> 00:20:39.600 among other things, or any object, you still need to know first. 214 00:20:39.600 --> 00:20:47.000 Until you've passed it, you don't know, that is, you're talking about things you don't know. Yes? 217 00:20:47.000 --> 00:20:53.000 - Is it possible to say that life for a philosopher 218 00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:59.800 has meaning only to the extent that he has thought this life? 219 00:20:59.800 --> 00:21:05.000 - No. To that extent, no. I would say even more strongly: 220 00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:11.000 Only to the extent that it helps him to change the angle of thinking, 222 00:21:11.000 --> 00:21:15.300 to change something in thinking. 223 00:21:15.300 --> 00:21:18.800 And when a person begins a reflection or discussion with the words: 224 00:21:19.500 --> 00:21:24.000 "I have always been convinced that..." It's necessary, then, the old man... 225 00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:27.600 ..now you need to hit your head 226 00:21:27.600 --> 00:21:34.300 with a heavy book, Zen-like, so that you always know nothing. 227 00:21:34.300 --> 00:21:39.000 "Always knew" - that's all, the destruction of philosophizing. 228 00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:44.500 Then what is there to talk about at all if you are always sure, convinced, knew? 230 00:21:44.500 --> 00:21:50.000 That's how this gentleman moved me. 00:21:51.500 --> 00:21:54.500 "But you're a teacher, aren't you?" 231 00:21:56.900 --> 00:22:01.600 Well, that's right. But, as always... 232 00:22:01.600 --> 00:22:08.800 Well, we can do that, but we can, you know... 233 00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:14.900 Sure. But this is also in fact... 235 00:22:18.000 --> 00:22:24.400 It's also, in fact, not entirely real. 236 00:22:24.400 --> 00:22:30.500 Not entirely because I'm a teacher. Because, of course, 237 00:22:30.500 --> 00:22:37.400 teaching, like any other occupation or action, 00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:42.000 is truly realized when there is no "I". 238 00:22:45.300 --> 00:22:49.900 How true art is realized when the artist is not there, 239 00:22:49.900 --> 00:22:54.800 when he is not in his thoughts, 240 00:22:54.800 --> 00:22:59.500 when he is all in the frame on the canvas. I think so. Maybe I'm wrong here. 00:22:59.500 --> 00:23:02.500 London, 2003 241 00:23:03.600 --> 00:23:07.500 - What does the teacher do? Studies. 242 00:23:07.500 --> 00:23:12.500 At this time he is teaching. At the same time, he can be the creator and destroyer 243 00:23:12.500 --> 00:23:16.500 (Here we are) of all worlds. 244 00:23:16.500 --> 00:23:19.500 We're doing the first circle. 00:23:20.500 --> 00:23:23.500 About the consolation of Arjuna 245 00:23:24.400 --> 00:23:28.800 -"Here you are crying now." He started crying. 246 00:23:28.800 --> 00:23:31.000 "Your hands are shaking. But that's good. 248 00:23:31.700 --> 00:23:37.000 I'll calm you down. But remember, it's all nonsense - both the hands and the crying. 249 00:23:37.500 --> 00:23:41.600 The main thing is that, at the same time, you know something. 250 00:23:41.600 --> 00:23:47.200 Because no emotional state of a person or any other living being 252 00:23:47.200 --> 00:23:51.000 changes his ontological statute, 00:23:51.000 --> 00:23:56.400 neither despair, like Arjuna's, nor joy, nor anger, nor fun. 253 00:23:56.400 --> 00:24:01.100 The ontological statute cannot change psychologically. 254 00:24:01.100 --> 00:24:10.200 It is only one factor that changes the ontological statute of a living being. This factor is knowledge. 256 00:24:14.900 --> 00:24:19.500 He, already much later, (I don't remember anymore, in chapter 11 or in chapter 12?) 258 00:24:19.500 --> 00:24:22.600 This factor is knowledge. "Listen, but now 259 00:24:22.600 --> 00:24:25.600 now that you already know, I've told you, to begin with, 260 00:24:25.600 --> 00:24:30.700 and you've already seen my universal form, 261 00:24:30.700 --> 00:24:35.200 my cosmic image, vishwaroopam, 262 00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:40.400 now you know that you don't actually have to do anything. 263 00:24:40.400 --> 00:24:47.400 Everything has already been done, it has already been predetermined who will be killed 264 00:24:47.400 --> 00:24:50.500 (almost everyone will be killed), who will not be killed 266 00:24:50.500 --> 00:24:54.200 (very few, you, first of all, will not be killed). 267 00:24:54.200 --> 00:24:58.900 And remember that what you are doing now, you must do without any feelings, 268 00:24:58.900 --> 00:25:04.500 without any fears. Because it is, as it were, already done. It is only the actualization 270 00:25:04.500 --> 00:25:08.400 hat manifests it in itself. That's all. 271 00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:13.800 The decision is not yours. Everything has already been decided. I decided this before 273 00:25:13.800 --> 00:25:19.000 the beginning of Time, before Worlds were created. 274 00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:24.300 So don't worry. You don't have to be afraid, you don't have to be happy, 275 00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:31.000 you don't have to be desperate, you don't have to be triumphant. 276 00:25:31.000 --> 00:25:38.900 Just do what is already predetermined 277 00:25:38.900 --> 00:25:44.600 in my higher knowledge. 278 00:25:44.600 --> 00:25:54.000 Because the one who should be killed by you today will be killed by you today. 00:25:54.000 --> 00:25:59.300 Neither you nor anyone else can change this decision.