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"A conversation is unthinkable without my participation in it, but I myself am unthinkable if the conversation stops".

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Philosopher Alexander Moiseevich Pyatigorsky (1929-2009)

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- What I love most in life is 

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the possibility and reality of listening and talking.

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conversation with Alexander Pyatigorsky


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PART VI

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Vienna, 2001

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Varanasi, 2002

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- You see, Luda recently said in annoyance that 

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I catch people. Yes? That's what you said, right? 

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For a conversation. So, next. I'm catch people for a conversation.

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a conversation. In fact, if it were true, it would be for me... 

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- Or the people catch you.
- Or people catch me for a conversation.

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No, you're saying that I don't...

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But it so happens 

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that there are quite a lot of them, but not comparable with George Ivanovich. 

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About Gurdjieff

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Gurdjieff's strength is not in his system,   

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(If you ask me, his system is complete nonsense.) 

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but in a series of his phenomenal intuitions.  

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Some fragments that got into his system,  

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into the undeveloped and underdeveloped minds of his students and female students.  

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But, indeed, he had some absolutely extraordinary intuitive ability,  

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that is, the ability to get to some points of truth

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in some most paradoxical way.  

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And I do not just think, but I am sure that a person cannot learn this,

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and that he was not able to teach his students this,

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which he himself bitterly said.

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He said: "Everything went down the drain."   

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Therefore, from here, as it were, he make a decision  

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that no one will understand anything. It is necessary to tell fairy tales. 

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That's when they perceive fairy tales, then, maybe, 

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from fairy tales, parables, they will be able to understand something for themselves. 


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He talked about it. Moreover, 

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he even has statements that this is a karmic mistake.

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In addition, he was very judgmental of himself for his young life.

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He was, in modern parlance, a professional terrorist. 

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He was a member of a huge underground organization  

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of revenge of Armenians and Greeks against Turks for terrible atrocities -  

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for pogroms, for torture, for violence.  

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And he was in a terrorist squad.  

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Ouspensky said, from his words, that he had been there for 6 years. 

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Then he traveled a lot. Then he completely refused.  

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He swore that his hand would not touch a weapon, either hot or cold.

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He cursed everything. It was his only curse.  

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You know, it's hard to imagine a person with such a profound aversion to violence as Gurdjieff. 

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It wasn't hatred, it was some kind of disgust.


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And hence his attitude to resistance in France.  

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He said: "Instead of killing Germans, they should be saving the French."

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What made Gurdjieff still continue to teach?

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There is some objective energy that tends to manifest itself  

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in the desire of the teacher to teach and the students to learn. It is there.  

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I think it's some kind of, on the one hand, centrifugal force 

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that takes a person out of the circle of his normal, that is, completely idiotic existence,

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and, on the other hand, this centripetal energy  

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that returns a person from this idiotic normal circle to himself.

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For example, there are mystical teachings, like mystical Judaism, 

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where the main thing is the second, the return to oneself. 

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This is what carries a person back to himself.

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But I think that Gurdjieff, he, as it were, used the energy of his own, 

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in any case, according to the teaching in two senses.  


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Is God also energy?

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Hindu thinkers, as it were, said that 

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what is designated for the average person by the word "God"  


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has 3 sides, or three faces.

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God is like energy, like power.

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You know, these motives are also present in Gnostic Christianity.  

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God is like energy, like power. Further.   

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God, as consciousness, as over-thinking. God is like a superpower.

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God is like super-thinking or consciousness. 

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And God, like some kind of absolute of positivity,   

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well, you can say, love, acceptance.  

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Well, this is also the same somewhere in Buddhism, when they talk about beyond Buddhism.

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And nothing of these three can exist one without the other. It's impossible.

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- Alexander Moiseevich, then is your God energy?

- No, of course not. Consciousness and thinking.

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But, again, without energy, it's all flabby, hanging like this, 

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like these very fans. If you turn it off, they'll spin like this for a while.

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But, that's the thing, that's where the idea of training the psyche comes from, so that this energy goes.

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Energy, it is always objectively there. In order to transfer it to the subjective level of an individual  

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and thereby achieve a change in his normal, that is, idiotic, psyche, 

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for this, a person must exert enormous, already his own, energy 

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only to catch this objective energy on his antennae. 

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But in fact, there is only one energy.  

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The psyche needs to be reworked,  

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first in order to realize itself as normal,   

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to understand what it is,  

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and then to move to the next level. 

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But already, in order to understand normality, you need to get to the next level

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and only by standing on it, you can move on.  

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What is this highest level of observation?

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I think it's better not to use the verb "to be" when talking about him.

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It is not "be." It happens too. It energizes.

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That is, we can only talk about it by detecting the moment of its occurrence. 

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It's like I am,   

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in that ugly normal or abnormal form 

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in which you see me and yourself. 

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And it happens. It cannot be said about him that it "there is".

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But then the world is nothing more than a fragment of what happened?

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Definitely. A fragment of what happened. A series of cases.

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Everything we talk about, it happens.

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And "there is" is the habit of perceiving the case as something frozen.

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Every thought happens. Well, every hare understands that.

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In what sense does it happen, dear Uldis?

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Не в смысле, "может случиться" can happen,

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Not in the sense of "can happen", but in the sense of "maybe it will happen , and maybe it won't happen".

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Do you understand? This is a very important point.

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And Gurdjieff was very close to understanding this moment.

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If there was such an opportunity, what would you ask Gurdjieff?

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I would have asked him a question at all:

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"Was it right for him to metaphysically concentrate on remaking people?

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Or maybe there are some other objects unaccounted for?" 

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- Hares?

- But we don't know that.

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But hares would again be pure anthropomorphism. 

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Do you understand? But don't forget that Gurdjieff was a man of the Judeo-Christian tradition.

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Gurdjieff was born and died a Christian, an Orthodox, at the same time, 

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which I cannot say about myself.

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I think it's important.  

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Here I quite agree with my old friend Evgeny Lvovich Slate, who broke up with me.

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I agree that a person cannot deny

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what happened to him in religion.

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He can go on. He can wait for new cases.

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But he can't say that it didn't happen. So?


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So, in this sense, I can only say that,

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unlike Gurdjieff, this did not happen to me.

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As you know, at birth, even if we talk about a formal ritual, I was neither baptized nor circumcised.

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My parents were complete and absolute Soviet atheists.

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Therefore, it turned out, in this sense, some kind of a clear field. Do you accept? Go for a walk.

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Riga, 2002

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Latvia's reputation has been restored by 92%.  

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This lamb, I'll tell you... May I have a fork? Any.

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Thank you very much. Here, I just want to see. 

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So, this lamb, I'll tell you! 

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I did not expect such lamb. No.


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Does food have any other function besides saturation?

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Like anything else   

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which is use by image, that includes both thinking and consciousness. 

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Everything has a different function. Food has a different function. 

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The car has a different function.  

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The sky has a different function. The elephant has a different function. 

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What?

- To be?

- Yes. To be.

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That is, in fact, maybe this other, this residue, 

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is the main thing in any thing in the universe,  

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and not additions and not a residue, but, in relation to what, everything is not different

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and will be some kind of residue, some kind of addition.  

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And how is food related to thinking?

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Any image, any act of sensory perception,  

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if there is thinking, it is also thinking at the same time.  

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That is, in fact, any psychic act,  

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starting with the most elementary acts of sensory perception, 

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is not elementary, because it is at the same time thinking, if it exists at all.

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And, of course, the cook's activity is

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at the same time a mental activity,   

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maybe in some sense, and above all a mental one. 

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Well, this is understandable to a hare. So?  

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You say that as a cook, you are an amateur. And in what other fields are you an amateur?

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Well, as you, being my friend, how can you ask this question?

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This is ridiculous. You're upsetting me again for the second time today,

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after this idiotic knife, supposedly not yours. 

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Of course, in philosophy. 

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Of course, this is the main area of my hobby.

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- That is, cooking, love and...?

- What kind of love? Where did you get love from?
"Love" 
- I didn't say.

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I haven't said yet that I'm an amateur in love. 


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Ok. In love - an amateur! Here, here, I think...

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No. Philosophy.

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After all, I'm not saying that I'm a professional in love.

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But, it's just that there isn't... 

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- Alexander Moiseevich, is it possible for a philosopher to refrain?

- From what?

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- From excessive gluttony?

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- Do you know, seriously speaking, why only a philosopher?

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Anyone needs to refrain from excessive. 

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Is it possible to eat while remaining a philosopher?

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- You can do anything, while remaining a philosopher,   

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even produce supersonic aircraft that nobody needs.  

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And in general, nothing can prevent you from doing philosophy.

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And if he can, then let this person, 

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who calls himself an amateur, but a philosopher,

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begin, say, to be interested in mushrooms or the physiology of сhiroptera.

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Сhiroptera, dear Uldis, for example, are mostly bats.

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You've heard of them, right? Bat in English.

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Pavlosta, 2003

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About death as a form of thinking

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As one of the cases, thinking that thinks about its end, about not thinking,

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consciousness that is aware of its end, not awareness is death.

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This is how I see death 

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and this is how I fear death    

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as the end, the end of my thinking about thinking.  

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And here I registering, here I thinking. No. There is no thinking! That's it! 


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In a sense, I think that when a person does not think at all,  

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he is dead to himself.  

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So you know this story? 

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But it is  Anatole France's not great story about Guido Cavalcanti. 

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Such a little scary story.

- No. I don't know.

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Well, there's a meeting of Guido on the hunt with some count or at the hunt. 

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"Have you started avoiding society, Guido?" - said the Count. 

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"Oh," he says, "yes. But I don't like talking to the dead."

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The count says, "How? Why? Look around, look at how beautiful the girls are,

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how wonderful the wine is, how great the hunting is.

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Why do you call us dead?" 

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He says: "Because those who do not know and do not think, they are corpses."

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Then the count got angry and said, "How? How? I know 

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how to train a falcon like no one else in our field. 

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I know how to take a hare.

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I know how to hunt a boar.

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I know how to lie down a woman on the side of the road in a minute.

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I know how to please Countess so-and-so.

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I know a lot of things, Guido.

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I think you're asking too much of us."

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Guido shrugged his shoulders and said, "Well, what can I do?".

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I can't ask too much of corpses."