WEBVTT
Kind: captions
Language: ru-RU

00:00:07.800 --> 00:00:16.900
"A conversation is unthinkable without my participation in it, but I myself am unthinkable if the conversation stops".

00:00:17.700 --> 00:00:23.700
Philosopher Alexander Moiseevich Pyatigorsky (1929-2009)

00:00:26.100 --> 00:00:29.400
- What I love most in life is 

00:00:34.600 --> 00:00:43.700
the possibility and reality of listening and talking.

00:00:43.700 --> 00:00:47.300
conversation with Alexander Pyatigorsky


00:00:48.000 --> 00:00:51.600
PART VII

00:00:52.500 --> 00:00:56.100
Riga, 2003

00:00:57.900 --> 00:01:00.800
- Just let's agree, don't make me laugh. 

3
00:01:00.800 --> 00:01:05.100
Because I'll get tired, and then I'll fall asleep right away.

00:01:06.800 --> 00:01:10.900
- What does it mean to philosophize?

4
00:01:12.200 --> 00:01:15.900
First of all, think about what you want, 

5
00:01:15.900 --> 00:01:23.600
while constantly doing thinking about your thinking

6
00:01:23.600 --> 00:01:31.900
more than thinking about what you want, think about your thinking about what you want.

8
00:01:31.900 --> 00:01:40.200
I only need a subjective, my own, understanding

9
00:01:40.200 --> 00:01:48.100
of the philosopher in application to one person - myself.  

00:01:49.600 --> 00:01:54.600
Can a person who does not have his own philosophy be a philosopher?

10
00:01:55.700 --> 00:02:00.900
- I answer in parts: "Basically, no, it can't." 

11
00:02:02.300 --> 00:02:06.500
If we talk at all, I would say  

12
00:02:06.500 --> 00:02:13.100
that we need some kind of our own, albeit poorly formulated,  

13
00:02:13.100 --> 00:02:22.000
chaotic, philosophy, but our own. In general, the moment of "one's own" is extremely important here.

14
00:02:23.800 --> 00:02:29.200
I think it was his importance, which I felt more than I thought,  

16
00:02:29.200 --> 00:02:35.200
that led me to this elementary method.   

17
00:02:35.200 --> 00:02:39.200
However, in fact, this is all, not in relation to philosophy, 

18
00:02:39.200 --> 00:02:43.700
but to other things, I had much earlier. 

19
00:02:44.400 --> 00:02:49.900
That is, inventing someone else who would say something or argue

20
00:02:50.500 --> 00:02:53.600
instead of you. 

21
00:02:54.700 --> 00:03:02.500
Sometimes even they were animals, but of a fabulous type. 

22
00:03:02.500 --> 00:03:13.700
- For example?
- Well, for example, I just improvised fairy tales in my childhood in a very large number,

25
00:03:13.700 --> 00:03:25.200
which were very popular among the people around me, 

26
00:03:25.200 --> 00:03:29.600
mostly at the age of somewhere up to 8 years. 

27
00:03:29.600 --> 00:03:36.100
And this transfer was and remains, in the opinion of one of my friends 

29
00:03:36.100 --> 00:03:42.800
who fell out of love with me, a manifestation of my fraudulent essence.  

30
00:03:42.800 --> 00:03:47.200
For example, instead of telling my buddies:  

31
00:03:49.100 --> 00:03:51.600
"You know, Volodya, I think you're a fool," 
32
00:03:51.600 --> 00:03:57.200
I say, "You know, Volodya, I met a dog this morning 

33
00:03:57.200 --> 00:04:00.500
who told me that you're a fool."   

00:04:02.500 --> 00:04:06.500
About his love of making up stories and marmalade.

34
00:04:08.500 --> 00:04:11.500
- (Well, I don't even remember that)  

35
00:04:11.500 --> 00:04:19.300
..., что в подвале соседнего дома был похоронен Карл Маркс. 

00:04:21.900 --> 00:04:24.800
But maybe it wasn't me.  

36
00:04:27.800 --> 00:04:33.300
There was also one, but the same boy, completely, obviously, defective,

37
00:04:33.300 --> 00:04:37.800
 whom they even wanted to exclude and transfer to some kindergarten

38
00:04:37.800 --> 00:04:43.800
for mentally disabled children, 

39
00:04:45.900 --> 00:04:52.500
who was completely obsessed (maybe I got infected then) with marmalade, 

40
00:05:10.300 --> 00:05:15.100
which he hid in felt boots. 

00:05:27.700 --> 00:05:37.300
And then his mom and dad were informed that the boy was obviously mentally unfit.

41
00:05:37.300 --> 00:05:45.200
Every hare understand what such people can lead the country to. 

00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:50.900
The purpose of the act as a reason for reflection. 

42
00:05:52.200 --> 00:06:07.200
Well, you know, one of my very good friends  

43
00:06:07.200 --> 00:06:16.000
once said (although another friend said the same thing in a different way),

44
00:06:16.000 --> 00:06:22.800
that when you read the Viking sagas,  

45
00:06:22.800 --> 00:06:25.800
you get the impression  

46
00:06:25.800 --> 00:06:30.600
that the Vikings often performed their ferocious feats  

47
00:06:30.600 --> 00:06:38.900
not so much in order to defeat the enemy, capture slaves, gold, wealth , land, 

48
00:06:38.900 --> 00:06:46.600
how much so that sagas were immediately composed about them, where all this is described.

51
00:06:46.600 --> 00:06:53.000
The same thing was said by Roberto Calasso about the tendency 

52
00:06:53.000 --> 00:07:04.700
which he noticed in post-Homeric Greek literature  

53
00:07:04.700 --> 00:07:14.200
that Homer did not so much describe the exploits of Achilles 

54
00:07:14.200 --> 00:07:20.700
as embodied these exploits in some parallel way,   

55
00:07:20.700 --> 00:07:26.200
without which they would never have been a feat.  

56
00:07:26.200 --> 00:07:32.700
And not because without the Iliad we never knew about them (this is flat),

58
00:07:32.700 --> 00:07:37.200
but because the actors themselves 

59
00:07:37.200 --> 00:07:43.700
acted as heroes,  

60
00:07:43.700 --> 00:07:52.000
as heroes of epic poems that were not written or written. 

61
00:07:52.000 --> 00:07:59.300
This is very important, especially when further clarification follows.

62
00:07:59.300 --> 00:08:12.200
But, say, the heroes of Sophocles' Oedipus cycle are another matter.


64
00:08:12.200 --> 00:08:23.800
They are already heroes of the tragedy. This is a completely different type of life.

66
00:08:25.500 --> 00:08:31.000
They are no longer heroes, in the real sense of the word, as the same Achilles was. 

67
00:08:35.200 --> 00:08:39.900
And this is really very important 

68
00:08:41.000 --> 00:08:46.500
when we talk about many things, both in life and in philosophizing.

69
00:08:46.500 --> 00:08:54.900
But, let's say, my attitude to life was sometimes even consciously 

71
00:08:54.900 --> 00:09:01.300
"well, it's interesting to live this episode or situation,

72
00:09:01.300 --> 00:09:05.700
because how will it be interesting to think about it later".

73
00:09:06.900 --> 00:09:09.900
It's the same thing.  

74
00:09:10.500 --> 00:09:20.300
I think that this could not have been the genius of abstract speculation.

75
00:09:22.000 --> 00:09:27.500
Well, can you imagine... who would say,

76
00:09:27.500 --> 00:09:33.400
"It is interesting to arrange this little war

77
00:09:33.400 --> 00:09:39.600
in order to later cite it as an example of reduction,

78
00:09:39.600 --> 00:09:47.000
for example, in a new book on the crisis of European scientific knowledge"?

00:09:48.500 --> 00:09:52.300
About philosophy and life

79
00:09:53.400 --> 00:09:57.400
One of my friends, also old, told me,

80
00:09:57.400 --> 00:10:03.200
"You're all lying. It's more important for you to live than to philosophize." 

81
00:10:04.000 --> 00:10:11.600
I said, "But, you know, I can accept your objection, again, as rhetoric.

84
00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:17.000
You are arguing with my rhetoric by rhetorical means.

85
00:10:18.300 --> 00:10:25.400
And then how will things go for you. After all, we have just begun to think. 

86
00:10:25.400 --> 00:10:28.500
And then a lot can happen.  

87
00:10:29.300 --> 00:10:37.500
Or maybe, as happens in 99% of cases, nothing will happen."

88
00:10:41.800 --> 00:10:48.000
- How does your philosophy relate to your life? 

89
00:10:51.000 --> 00:11:00.100
- In the most direct way.  It is included in life as her line.

00:11:01.300 --> 00:11:05.100
How does your philosophy relate to your life?

90
00:11:08.600 --> 00:11:12.100
- Well, I just can't live without doing it. 

92
00:11:14.400 --> 00:11:18.500
This is already a need.

93
00:11:18.500 --> 00:11:23.500
I call it intention, that's the component 

94
00:11:23.500 --> 00:11:32.400
without which no resulting line is possible. 

95
00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:42.300
Therefore, a number of other things  

96
00:11:44.700 --> 00:11:50.400
that can be reflected in a different way in a different mindset

97
00:11:50.400 --> 00:11:58.700
are reflected in me precisely as some kind of line that is inside life. 

98
00:12:01.100 --> 00:12:06.400
Is there a life that cannot be combined with philosophy?

99
00:12:09.400 --> 00:12:15.700
- I think that, again, in principle, there is no such life.

100
00:12:16.900 --> 00:12:21.900
You can think in any conceivable life. 

101
00:12:27.100 --> 00:12:35.400
And this choice, "to live or to philosophize," is given rhetorically.

102
00:12:36.400 --> 00:12:47.900
But at the same time, it's a matter of physiology and death for me.

103
00:12:51.500 --> 00:12:56.800
- The philosopher is afraid of death, like any other person. 

104
00:12:56.800 --> 00:12:59.900
But at the same time,  

105
00:12:59.900 --> 00:13:07.500
(I don't want to repeat what has been said by others millions of times better than me) 

106
00:13:09.900 --> 00:13:19.600
the completeness of his philosophizing is possible only together with the inclusion of death in it. 

107
00:13:21.200 --> 00:13:23.200
Which is, of course... 

108
00:13:27.300 --> 00:13:34.400
In the philosopher's thinking about life, the most important thing is life.

00:13:36.900 --> 00:13:40.700
About the subject of philosophy

109
00:13:40.900 --> 00:13:47.600
- Philosophy has no subject of its own, but it is far from indifferent to the subject with wich it...

111
00:13:47.600 --> 00:13:53.800
On the contrary, if a philosopher, having chosen a subject,  

112
00:13:54.700 --> 00:13:58.700
is indifferent to it, then nothing happens. 

113
00:13:58.700 --> 00:14:02.700
It's getting uninteresting. 

114
00:14:02.700 --> 00:14:06.700
For a philosopher, this will always, to one degree or another, 

115
00:14:06.700 --> 00:14:12.700
be a matter of life and death, even if there is no longer a life and death situation. 

117
00:14:15.800 --> 00:14:23.400
This, if you like, is like  "building roman"  

118
00:14:23.400 --> 00:14:30.000
from the late forties to the early sixties.  

119
00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:33.600
This is a roman of upbringing.  

120
00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:38.400
I think that without going through this roman, it is very difficult for someone

121
00:14:38.400 --> 00:14:42.700
who is a philosopher (a child) to become a philosopher. So? 

122
00:14:42.700 --> 00:14:50.900
It is very difficult without "building roman". It's possible. It happens.  

123
00:14:52.200 --> 00:14:57.800
And Merab, Shchedrovitsky and I had such "buildings roman". 

00:14:59.000 --> 00:15:03.200
Can anyone become a philosopher?

124
00:15:04.800 --> 00:15:11.700
- Can. Of course he can. But at the same time he has to do it.

125
00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:18.400
- What to do?

- Become a philosopher in this. 

126
00:15:19.500 --> 00:15:25.800
That is, to reflect on his attitude to the part of the field  

127
00:15:25.800 --> 00:15:31.300
in which he found himself, as philosophical,   

128
00:15:31.300 --> 00:15:38.600
and not as determining the specifics of this field or part of it.


00:15:39.700 --> 00:15:46.500
Is it possible then to talk at all about how a person becomes a philosopher?

129
00:15:47.700 --> 00:15:50.800
- Yes and no.  

130
00:15:50.800 --> 00:15:58.600
No, in the sense that only someone who, in some way, is a philosopher

131
00:16:04.600 --> 00:16:09.000
can become a philosopher or even is becoming one.

132
00:16:11.300 --> 00:16:17.000
A philosopher can become a philosopher only in some field.

133
00:16:17.000 --> 00:16:21.200
But in order to become a philosopher in this field,

134
00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:25.200
he must already enter this field as a philosopher.

135
00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:28.500
That is, some work should already be done.

00:16:28.500 --> 00:16:38.300
- By whom?

- Them.

- Philosophical work?

136
00:16:38.300 --> 00:16:41.400
- The job that... Yes, I would say so,

137
00:16:41.400 --> 00:16:49.800
The work, some amount of reflection, should already have been worked out by him.

138
00:16:50.600 --> 00:16:56.000
Can any child grow up to be a philosopher?

139
00:16:56.600 --> 00:17:05.400
- No. This is incredibly difficult to explain,  

140
00:17:07.700 --> 00:17:11.900
because for this a child must be such a freak 

141
00:17:13.600 --> 00:17:17.000
who, no matter what field he enters,   

142
00:17:20.800 --> 00:17:24.800
will always keep in himself the idea  

143
00:17:24.800 --> 00:17:29.300
that the main thing for him is not this field,  

144
00:17:29.300 --> 00:17:33.700
but what he will do with it whith his reflection.  

145
00:17:35.300 --> 00:17:38.700
Maybe this field, maybe another field. 

146
00:17:42.800 --> 00:17:50.200
- But then it turns out nonsense. Then it turns out that only the one who is a philosopher can become a philosopher. 

147
00:17:51.300 --> 00:17:57.600
- In a sense, it is. And this is not nonsense at all. 


149
00:17:57.600 --> 00:18:02.300
This is the... At every moment you say:

150
00:18:02.300 --> 00:18:05.700
"This one. This one. This one."

151
00:18:05.700 --> 00:18:10.400
This means that there is already some kind of philosopher in him.  

152
00:18:10.400 --> 00:18:15.200
He hasn't been manifested yet, but it should be.  

153
00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:21.900
And it's not nonsense. It's so necessary. He has already entered this field 

155
00:18:26.200 --> 00:18:29.600
with the desire to reflect his thinking in this field,  

156
00:18:29.600 --> 00:18:39.000
and not to think only about the field itself as an object of thinking.

00:18:40.300 --> 00:18:43.600
Ladakh, 2003

00:18:44.500 --> 00:18:50.100
Tell me, among these mountains, what is the sense of your philosophy?

157
00:18:51.900 --> 00:19:01.200
- I think... I think that if philosophy has any sense, 

159
00:19:03.500 --> 00:19:09.100
it is in the mountains, in the basement, in the palace, in the swamp. 

160
00:19:09.100 --> 00:19:12.300
And if it's not there, then it's nowhere.

161
00:19:12.300 --> 00:19:15.500
Therefore, you do not need to look at the mountains for this.

162
00:19:15.500 --> 00:19:18.800
You have all the mountains anyway.


164
00:19:19.500 --> 00:19:25.000
Therefore, the sense, in general, of any philosophy  

165
00:19:25.000 --> 00:19:31.800
can, or cannot, be or not be, only within it. 

166
00:19:32.300 --> 00:19:40.000
Philosophy, from my point of view,   

167
00:19:40.000 --> 00:19:43.800
cannot have (I would even say so,  

168
00:19:43.800 --> 00:19:48.900
not only philosophy, nothing interesting) any external sense.

169
00:19:48.900 --> 00:19:54.600
Why? Because there can be an infinite number of answers. 

170
00:19:54.600 --> 00:20:03.500
It's not interesting anymore. After all, sense presupposes the very word "sense".

171
00:20:03.500 --> 00:20:09.100
In general, I will tell you, here, of course, it begins again... 

173
00:20:09.100 --> 00:20:13.100
(I'm commenting on your question)  

174
00:20:14.500 --> 00:20:22.400
I return to what I call the struggle with language. 

175
00:20:23.200 --> 00:20:32.800
In Russian "смысл", in German "sinn", in English "sense".

177
00:20:34.200 --> 00:20:40.600
Yes, I think that to concretize any philosophy,

178
00:20:40.600 --> 00:20:45.900
if there is something in it, as sense or not sense, 

179
00:20:45.900 --> 00:20:50.500
is, in principle, not interesting. 

180
00:20:52.800 --> 00:20:56.000
About Buddhism

181
00:20:57.500 --> 00:21:01.300
- Some Buddhist ideas (not all, 

182
00:21:01.300 --> 00:21:08.200
but some Buddhist thoughts and some Buddhist formulations),   

183
00:21:10.300 --> 00:21:14.500
when I come back to them (and I come back to them 

184
00:21:14.500 --> 00:21:18.900
in a certain situation that gives a reason),  

185
00:21:22.300 --> 00:21:26.700
allow me to look at some mental and life situations   

186
00:21:26.700 --> 00:21:35.200
from a different point of view, no matter from what, but from another. With some other.

187
00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:38.500
Buddhism can give some new temporary position:

188
00:21:38.500 --> 00:21:41.500
"What if you look like this?"

189
00:21:43.400 --> 00:21:46.600
But I'll just give you a broader example.  

190
00:21:48.300 --> 00:21:54.100
Well, let's say any human conflict with a friend,  

191
00:21:54.100 --> 00:21:58.500
(have you ever had conflicts with friends?) 

192
00:21:58.500 --> 00:22:07.200
with a wife, with children. And here some Buddhist thoughts and formulations

193
00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:14.100
(Sometimes formulations are more important than thoughts. And the wording of these thoughts is more important than the thoughts themselves) 

195
00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:23.600
allow you to give some other angle on this situation.

196
00:22:23.600 --> 00:22:29.100
And besides, and of course the most important thing 

197
00:22:32.100 --> 00:22:38.800
is that Buddhism very often can lead you

199
00:22:38.800 --> 00:22:43.000
(no, "Buddhism" is a bad word, some Buddhist thoughts) 

200
00:22:43.000 --> 00:22:52.800
to at least the most elementary, but generally very difficult to comprehend by normal people, idea


202
00:22:54.900 --> 00:23:00.900
 that when a conflict arises, as it were, a normal reaction - the conflict must be resolved.

204
00:23:02.400 --> 00:23:07.900
And there is another point of view: "Well, you will resolve this conflict, there will be another one.  

205
00:23:07.900 --> 00:23:16.700
And you'll be sitting like a fool again. You will resolve another conflict, and then the 175th..."

207
00:23:17.600 --> 00:23:23.400
So, in particular, speaking about conflicts in general, 

208
00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:31.400
it seems to be necessary to understand that the resolution of any conflict lies not in the conflict,

209
00:23:31.400 --> 00:23:37.900
but in changing your attitude to this conflict and to conflicts in general, the mental attitude. 

212
00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:47.500
Don't try to figure it out. Everything is sketched out, made up  

00:23:47.500 --> 00:23:51.600
and fully corresponds to you in your current state.

213
00:23:51.600 --> 00:23:55.600
Let's say you complain about a conflict. Yes? And what are you, snout, yourself?


215
00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:02.100
One thought in one direction, another in another,

216
00:24:02.100 --> 00:24:11.100
the third - forgot to think, the fourth - weary of thinking, the fifth - bore of thinking.

217
00:24:11.100 --> 00:24:17.200
And, in general, you kind of give yourself up to the will of the conflict.

219
00:24:20.300 --> 00:24:25.500
And so I think it is this Buddhist idea of samsara 

220
00:24:25.500 --> 00:24:31.400
as such a Mish-Mash. A special word for your... 

221
00:24:34.900 --> 00:24:42.500
And the most important thing, I think, is to understand that any conflict 


223
00:24:42.500 --> 00:24:46.000
is, first of all, Asaara (?).   

224
00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:50.500
It has no meaning of its own and cannot have. 

00:24:52.400 --> 00:24:56.200
Alexander Moiseevich, are you a Buddhist?

225
00:24:57.800 --> 00:25:02.000
- Buddhism is close to me and I love it.  

226
00:25:02.000 --> 00:25:09.300
And in this, of course, there is a very strong moment of aesthetics. 

227
00:25:10.100 --> 00:25:18.800
But, in essence, that is, in religious essence, of course, I am not a Buddhist.

228
00:25:19.600 --> 00:25:23.300
When the angel of death calls you and starts weighing you...

229
00:25:24.200 --> 00:25:30.600
- Oh, I'll immediately shout, "Wait a minute! Let me think! I haven't formulated it yet."