WEBVTT Kind: captions Language: ru-RU 1 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:04.400 - Are you an emigrant? - Of course. 2 00:00:05.000 --> 00:00:15.100 Sure. For me, this question is perfectly analogous to the questions: 3 00:00:16.000 --> 00:00:22.800 "Are you 75 years old?" "Of course." "Are you Jewish?" "Of course." "Are you an emigrant?" "Of course." 4 00:00:22.800 --> 00:00:32.600 In this sense. Only in this sense. Because to begin the answer with the fact 5 00:00:32.600 --> 00:00:41.400 that you go into the mental subtleties of the proposed situation, 6 00:00:41.400 --> 00:00:45.500 it means to start fooling around. Do you agree, in principle? 7 00:00:45.500 --> 00:00:50.100 - Yes. That is, to clarify in what sense I am a Jew? 8 00:00:50.100 --> 00:00:54.100 - That's right. Yes. 9 00:00:55.300 --> 00:00:59.100 And in what sense, I'm 75 years old. That's in the same sense. 00:01:00.100 --> 00:01:07.900 - I have no doubt that you can think about the topic : "In what sense am I 75 years old" and start seriously answering this question. 10 00:01:07.900 --> 00:01:12.500 - No. If possible, not now. Okay? 00:01:12.500 --> 00:01:23.300 - OK. - Although, it could be a much deeper and philosophically interesting question than about lousy emigration. 12 00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:30.300 - And why why is it a "lousy" question about emigration? Well, what's not interesting about it? 13 00:01:30.300 --> 00:01:36.000 - It is not interesting that this... 14 00:01:36.000 --> 00:01:42.100 I can tell you that the very concept of emigration has long been... 15 00:01:42.100 --> 00:01:46.300 I'm talking about our Russian emigration now. I'm only talking about that. 16 00:01:46.300 --> 00:02:00.100 I don't want to talk about the emigration of Paraguayans to Argentina. It's here. This, please, come and ask them. 17 00:02:00.100 --> 00:02:09.700 It has been trivialized for a long time. It has long been hopelessly trivialized. - By whom? 18 00:02:10.700 --> 00:02:25.500 - By people who talked about it. As it were, and it has long been some kind of pastur for many people. 19 00:02:25.500 --> 00:02:29.400 Therefore, I am an emigrant in this (sense), and I cannot deny it, 20 00:02:29.400 --> 00:02:36.800 just as I cannot deny that I am Jewish, that I am 75 years old or that I have 5 children. 22 00:02:40.600 --> 00:02:48.200 - There is a question, what is migration for philosophers? Maybe... 23 00:02:50.800 --> 00:02:58.100 - In a serious philosophical sense, of course not. 24 00:02:58.100 --> 00:03:05.700 Because emigration exists for a philosopher only if, 25 00:03:05.700 --> 00:03:12.700 in terms of content, it has changed something in his philosophizing. 00:03:12.700 --> 00:03:17.900 It is according to the content, and not according to the conditions of the philosopher's life. 26 00:03:19.200 --> 00:03:25.000 - So, in your case, moving from one country to another has not changed anything at all? 28 00:03:25.000 --> 00:03:29.400 - In philosophy? - In the way you think about life. 30 00:03:29.400 --> 00:03:37.500 - No. I have greatly changed the way I think about life, but this change had nothing to do with emigration. 32 00:03:38.300 --> 00:03:41.600 - So it's just your internal process? 33 00:03:41.600 --> 00:03:49.200 - You see, it was influenced by the amount of new things 34 00:03:49.200 --> 00:03:56.600 that fell on me and are falling off like leaves from trees in autumn. 35 00:03:56.600 --> 00:04:00.600 But this is not the content. 36 00:04:03.600 --> 00:04:12.100 - And why was Socrates against emigration? Why did he choose death over emigration? 38 00:04:12.100 --> 00:04:17.800 - I assure you... Forgive me for the banality of the answer. 39 00:04:18.200 --> 00:04:24.900 I answer you as best I can. I am a very bad historian of philosophy. 40 00:04:26.200 --> 00:04:37.300 In a good German university 150 years ago, I would have had a hard time getting a "satisfactory" grade. 42 00:04:38.000 --> 00:04:46.200 But I will answer you as best I can. Because he figured here. And this is a very important issue 45 00:04:46.200 --> 00:04:51.400 that has nothing to do with our shitty emigration. 46 00:04:51.400 --> 00:05:03.200 The question is important, because one of the most important moments of Socratic philosophizing, 47 00:05:03.200 --> 00:05:12.900 at least according to Plato, was a personal example. 00:05:12.900 --> 00:05:19.800 A philosopher is someone who not only thinks and philosophizes like a philosopher, 48 00:05:19.800 --> 00:05:27.400 but also someone who lives like a philosopher - a personal example for students. 49 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:34.700 - And this is no longer the case? 50 00:05:38.100 --> 00:05:41.700 Is this also the case in your case? 51 00:05:41.700 --> 00:05:47.700 - Absolutely not. Not in the least. 52 00:05:47.700 --> 00:05:57.100 Not in the least. Because I could never claim 53 00:05:57.100 --> 00:06:08.700 to be an example or a case, however pathetic, of my own philosophizing. 55 00:06:08.700 --> 00:06:14.200 However, if that were the case, I would be very happy. 00:06:15.300 --> 00:06:20.900 You see, no, it wasn't, in the least, a philosophical act. 00:06:20.900 --> 00:06:24.500 And with Socrates it was a philosophical act. 56 00:06:25.100 --> 00:06:31.700 Thus, it would not be emigration. They were leaving all the time. 57 00:06:31.700 --> 00:06:38.200 They were leaving, saving their lives. They were leaving because of money and wealth. 00:06:38.700 --> 00:06:46.800 - "They" - You mean the Greeks? - Yes, Greeks. They were leaving. All they did were leaving, were leaving their homeland. 58 00:06:46.800 --> 00:06:53.600 Well, they were leaving when they were sentencing to exile. 59 00:06:54.500 --> 00:06:59.800 I was not, in the least, sentenced to exile. 60 00:06:59.800 --> 00:07:04.700 I left absolutely of my own free will. 00:07:05.400 --> 00:07:08.800 - Well, was it some kind of political gesture? 61 00:07:08.800 --> 00:07:11.800 - Not the slightest degree! 62 00:07:11.800 --> 00:07:21.300 It was, if you want to keep the word "gesture", an absolutely personal gesture. 63 00:07:22.400 --> 00:07:25.500 If you show it to someone, then only to yourself. 00:07:26.800 --> 00:07:32.700 - Show what? - "I'll take it and leave." And then, even so it wasn't. 66 00:07:32.700 --> 00:07:42.000 It's even somewhat idealized. It was one of the actions. 67 00:07:43.800 --> 00:07:50.900 Therefore, I would not like to say much here, 68 00:07:50.900 --> 00:07:56.400 because there is a lot to say here - it will be an inevitable lie. 69 00:07:59.800 --> 00:08:05.500 - Why? Since we are talking about personal actions, so it will be an inevitable lie? 71 00:08:05.900 --> 00:08:14.400 - No. This will be an inevitable lie, because then you will have to go beyond your personal sense of self, and there will be a complete lie. 73 00:08:14.400 --> 00:08:19.700 Therefore, I want to stay only within these limits. - I see. 74 00:08:19.700 --> 00:08:25.900 - That is, not how I would be looked at from the outside or even I could, but that's how, in truth, 76 00:08:25.900 --> 00:08:29.900 how I felt. There was no politics. 77 00:08:30.900 --> 00:08:35.000 - Well, what is existence in another language? 78 00:08:35.000 --> 00:08:42.900 You probably had to learn, didn't you? You probably knew how to write in English (I have no doubt)? 79 00:08:42.900 --> 00:08:46.600 - You said exactly: "to write." 80 00:08:46.600 --> 00:08:55.700 I have already published I do not know how many articles in English by the time of emigration, but I could not speak at all. 00:08:55.700 --> 00:08:58.700 I was talking terribly. 00:09:00.700 --> 00:09:06.500 - Well, does it matter to a philosopher what language he speaks? 82 00:09:06.500 --> 00:09:12.100 - I would say so, this is a very difficult question. 83 00:09:12.100 --> 00:09:17.500 For someone it matters, for someone it does not. 00:09:17.500 --> 00:09:21.600 - Heidegger, in my opinion, said that philosophy can only exist in German. 84 00:09:21.600 --> 00:09:24.700 - No, in two languages - German and Greek. 85 00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:33.800 And for Heidegger it was certainly so. - And for you? 86 00:09:33.800 --> 00:09:40.900 - But for (me), you know, definitely not so. 00:09:42.700 --> 00:09:45.700 Certainly not so. 87 00:09:46.200 --> 00:09:50.600 - Well, I'm just curious. If you need to write an article on a topic 88 00:09:50.600 --> 00:09:57.200 or you want to write an article, and in one case you need to write it in Russian, and in another in English, 91 00:09:57.200 --> 00:09:59.900 will it turn out to be the same article or two different ones? 92 00:09:59.900 --> 00:10:05.500 - I've never done it in my life. First of all, I can't translate. I'm completely incapable. 00:10:05.500 --> 00:10:15.200 I can't translate from English to Russian at all. I can translate from Russian into English. 93 00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:19.500 No, you know, I have developed some kind of specialization for a long time. 94 00:10:19.500 --> 00:10:26.000 In all Oriental subjects, in Buddhism - only in English. 95 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:31.000 That is, in all the subjects on which I have lectured all my life - in English. 00:10:31.500 --> 00:10:37.100 - Well, you've been lecturing in Russian too? I even attended many of these lectures. 96 00:10:37.100 --> 00:10:41.400 - When? - At the university. 97 00:10:41.400 --> 00:10:46.500 - In Moscow? - In Moscow, yes. - That is, at our last lectures with Merab? - Yes. 99 00:10:48.800 --> 00:10:52.000 - No, well, it was then... What are you! No. 100 00:10:52.000 --> 00:10:57.000 Then I was afraid to open my mouth at all. 101 00:10:57.000 --> 00:11:02.200 No, I wasn't afraid to write, but I was afraid to open my mouth. Nightmare. I'm still not brilliant with it. 102 00:11:07.500 --> 00:11:14.800 But in everything that concerns at least some russian things, only in Russian. 00:11:19.000 --> 00:11:23.100 - Reader, when you write, is he in Russia? 103 00:11:23.100 --> 00:11:27.200 - Honestly, I don't know. Here, I don't know. 104 00:11:28.400 --> 00:11:39.700 This is clearly a desperate man in life. But no, you know, unfortunately, there were a lot of them, 105 00:11:42.200 --> 00:12:03.600 even in London, where my book sold so much that I only have one copy left. 106 00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:09.800 And, to my great surprise, 107 00:12:09.800 --> 00:12:20.200 the small part of the circulation that was sent to the United States disappeared in 3 or 4 weeks. 109 00:12:21.600 --> 00:12:27.400 But it was all written only in English. Because it's about things completely cut off. 110 00:12:28.500 --> 00:12:34.000 This is the only work I have written not... 111 00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:40.500 Do you know the peculiarities of Jews and Russians Jews in particular - meddling in not their own affairs? 113 00:12:42.000 --> 00:12:45.800 - Are these the peculiarities of the Russians? I know about this quality... 114 00:12:46.800 --> 00:12:50.100 - ...meddling in not their own affairs. 00:12:50.100 --> 00:12:53.900 - And it seemed to me, on the contrary, in my opinion, it is the Jews who tend to meddle in not their own affairs. 115 00:12:53.900 --> 00:12:58.600 - I'm talking about the peculiarities of Russian Jews, 116 00:12:58.600 --> 00:13:07.700 Jews in general, but Russian Jews in particular. 117 00:13:07.700 --> 00:13:11.900 And so, it's simple, I literally changed my profession 00:13:11.900 --> 00:13:16.100 and changed it, probably, for almost 4 years of my life.. 118 00:13:16.100 --> 00:13:20.800 I wrote the first and last history book in my life. 119 00:13:22.600 --> 00:13:25.600 - About Freemasonry? - About Freemasonry. 120 00:13:26.200 --> 00:13:31.800 And here poor readers turned out to be in very large numbers. 00:13:31.800 --> 00:13:36.000 And now the Americans are releasing a new edition even. 00:13:38.300 --> 00:13:41.600 This is a purely American copy. 121 00:13:45.200 --> 00:13:52.600 Which I, however, partially attribute to the excellent publication. 00:13:52.600 --> 00:13:57.600 Oh my God! How luxurious the book was published! An excellent edition. 122 00:13:57.600 --> 00:14:02.300 The publisher was both, as it were, a designer and an artist. 123 00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:13.100 So not only does the author's very dubious talent play a role here, but the book turned out to be very good. 125 00:14:15.000 --> 00:14:18.500 Do you know that this is important? You probably know this as well as I do. 00:14:18.500 --> 00:14:22.400 - Well, in a sense, this is one of my professions. I'm a designer. 127 00:14:22.400 --> 00:14:25.500 - Well, yes. I'm telling you, you know too. - Of course. 128 00:14:25.500 --> 00:14:33.400 - And so, you understand, after all, when... Here I want to give you an example... Can you turn it off for now? - Yes. 129 00:14:33.400 --> 00:14:37.600 - You remember him perfectly well yourself, don't you? - I remember him perfectly. 130 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:45.100 - Tell me, in what year did he die? - In '96 - In '96. That is, in general, he also lived to an advanced age. 131 00:14:45.100 --> 00:14:49.800 - Yes, he lived to an advanced age. But his last years, 00:14:49.800 --> 00:14:57.200 on the one hand, were happy, in the sense that he married a relatively young woman, he had a child... 135 00:14:57.200 --> 00:14:59.200 - What does "relatively" mean? - Well, she's my age. 136 00:15:00.400 --> 00:15:06.700 - That is, she was younger than him by..? - ...younger than him by 24 years. 137 00:15:06.700 --> 00:15:14.500 And on the other hand, he was in a terrible state, because he 139 00:15:14.500 --> 00:15:21.400 from the elite layers sank to the bottom in Russia, simply because of his financial situation. 141 00:15:21.400 --> 00:15:28.700 He was a senior researcher, author of books. And he was a very wealthy man in Soviet times. 143 00:15:29.600 --> 00:15:36.900 And after that, he turned out to be practically a beggar. He couldn't buy an apartment for himself, couldn't send it... 00:15:36.900 --> 00:15:40.500 Well, in general, as you know, new... 147 00:15:40.500 --> 00:15:44.900 - Tell me, what year was he born? - The 1919th 148 00:15:44.900 --> 00:15:51.400 - Well, yes. He didn't die such an old man. - No. He was 77 years old. 149 00:15:53.100 --> 00:15:57.300 But he had a rather tragic feeling in recent years, 150 00:15:57.800 --> 00:16:08.500 because he was a person very sensitive to status. 152 00:16:08.500 --> 00:16:16.300 And he valued his status very much. - Yes, but it's one of the typical, 153 00:16:16.300 --> 00:16:25.300 one of the main components of the worldview of the Soviet Russian-Jewish intellectual. 154 00:16:25.300 --> 00:16:33.900 - Of course. - And this is the component that, according to my late friend Merab Mamardashvili, 155 00:16:33.900 --> 00:16:39.200 was ruining these people and will ruin them under any regime. 156 00:16:40.900 --> 00:16:45.300 - Yes. I think so. I think that, in a sense, it ruined him. 158 00:16:46.000 --> 00:16:55.200 He died, in general, in a fairly physically good condition. 159 00:16:55.200 --> 00:17:01.000 - My God! - But, just, he was in some kind of despair that he... 161 00:17:02.400 --> 00:17:09.300 It was also connected with the fact that he married a young woman, and he was some kind of god for her. 164 00:17:09.300 --> 00:17:15.600 He was a member of the Writers' Union. He had Creative Houses. He was on TV. 165 00:17:16.300 --> 00:17:25.200 And she was the librarian of the Electric Lamp Factory. And suddenly, within a few minutes... 167 00:17:25.200 --> 00:17:31.700 - The famous Electric Lamp factory? The one? - Yes, yes, yes. - Oh, my God! 00:17:33.100 --> 00:17:37.000 - Yes. She was the librarian of this very factory. - I'm an old Muscovite. 168 00:17:42.200 --> 00:17:52.800 - He felt like he was losing his status, so to speak, of God in her eyes, because he was slipping into ... 170 00:17:58.400 --> 00:18:02.300 - You see how important it is! 171 00:18:03.600 --> 00:18:11.400 But you belong to a different generation. I'm just telling you not in the order of didactics. 172 00:18:13.700 --> 00:18:20.200 How important it is if you married a woman who, as in my case, 173 00:18:20.200 --> 00:18:28.500 is exactly 30 years younger than you, to be without a home at all, 00:18:28.500 --> 00:18:35.000 to be without a salary at all, without a penny and with debts. This is my case. 174 00:18:35.000 --> 00:18:44.000 - That's fine. - Therefore, it can only get better from now on. Do you understand? - Of course. 175 00:18:46.400 --> 00:18:55.500 - No, but you know, I was incredibly lucky at the same time. After all, I was incredibly lucky. 00:18:57.000 --> 00:19:03.200 It's disgusting to talk about yourself. I'm stopping. But I have since childhood... 176 00:19:03.200 --> 00:19:08.800 Well, not from childhood, but, let's assume so, from youth, I will not exaggerate, 177 00:19:08.800 --> 00:19:15.000 a cultivated aversion to social status. 00:19:16.500 --> 00:19:19.600 But don't think that's who I am. 00:19:19.600 --> 00:19:25.700 It's the influence of people who were my mentors, 178 00:19:25.700 --> 00:19:37.600 who surrounded me, my friends, who beat this fucking Russian Jewishness out of me. 179 00:19:37.600 --> 00:19:43.100 Isn't that a gigantic piece of luck? - Yes. It's a giant stroke of luck. 180 00:19:43.700 --> 00:19:48.800 And for my father, I think it was due to the fact 181 00:19:48.800 --> 00:19:57.400 that his parents came from an extremely poor background, especially my grandfather. 183 00:19:57.400 --> 00:20:07.100 His father was from such a poor place that some habits of poverty remained with him until old age. 184 00:20:07.100 --> 00:20:13.300 - My father's situation is exactly the same. Absolutely poor Jews. 185 00:20:15.500 --> 00:20:21.200 - I even remember that Grandpa, when we all sat down to dinner, then... 00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:25.900 - Do you still remember Grandpa? - I remember my grandfather very well. 186 00:20:26.800 --> 00:20:31.700 When we all was setting down to dinner, he was saing: "No, no, no. Don't give me anything. I won't eat anything." 188 00:20:33.000 --> 00:20:36.300 And then he was saying: "No. Well, I'll take a little piece of this one." 190 00:20:36.300 --> 00:20:41.000 He could never afford to put himself a full plate, 191 0:20:41.000 --> 00:20:47.500 because it had been hammered into him since childhood that this poverty... 193 00:20:47.500 --> 00:20:54.900 No, but, you know, it's still not your grandfather's fault, but Dad's fault that he perceived one side. 00:20:55.700 --> 00:21:01.200 - I agree with you. - Because it was precisely from the towns that Jews came out, 00:21:01.200 --> 00:21:06.700 who absolutely did not care about everything precisely because of this poverty. 195 00:21:07.700 --> 00:21:10.700 - The opposite happened for him. 196 00:21:12.400 --> 00:21:18.000 - Well, it was somewhere after all and because of the early university success. 00:21:20.400 --> 00:21:26.400 - Yes, probably. - Because of the success in the intellectual elite in general. 197 00:21:30.300 --> 00:21:34.300 - I don't know, I don't know why. I think it's just some personal traits. 198 00:21:34.300 --> 00:21:38.500 - Well, personal traits, too. 199 00:21:41.700 --> 00:21:48.300 - In general, my father was, in a sense, a hedonist. 200 00:21:48.300 --> 00:21:53.800 He was a terrible womanizer, as they say. 201 00:21:53.800 --> 00:21:57.500 - Well, that's how it happens. I've heard of such people. 202 00:21:57.500 --> 00:22:01.400 - I've been told about them too. 203 00:22:01.400 --> 00:22:11.700 But him... In fact, of course, his drug was the admiration of the audience. 204 00:22:12.300 --> 00:22:15.400 If it wasn't, he just turned completely sour. 205 00:22:15.400 --> 00:22:20.400 - You know, it's very dangerous. - Very, very. 206 00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:27.800 By the way, my previous wife, 00:22:27.800 --> 00:22:33.900 who we have in common with Alek Zholkovsky, as were written in the reviews. 207 00:22:33.900 --> 00:22:37.200 - Excuse me, how can this be? 208 00:22:37.200 --> 00:22:43.700 -I was married to a woman named Katya Companeets, who was the daughter 210 00:22:43.700 --> 00:22:46.700 of such a famous physicist Alexander Solomonovich Companeets. 00:22:46.700 --> 00:22:50.500 - Of course. Yes. - He's from the Landau group. - Well, yes. 211 00:22:50.500 --> 00:22:56.700 And then for some time she was the wife (after we separated from her) of Alik Zholkovsky. 213 00:22:56.700 --> 00:22:59.700 Although, they were signed at the registry office, it seems. 214 00:23:00.700 --> 00:23:03.300 But she said, in my opinion, such an insightful thing about my father. 215 00:23:03.300 --> 00:23:11.600 She said it was my fault 216 00:23:11.600 --> 00:23:16.000 that he broke up with my mom and married a young woman, 218 00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:21.000 because I was always very skeptical about everything he wrote. 219 00:23:19.200 --> 00:23:24.500 He kept bringing me... - You, that is? - Me personally. 00:23:25.800 --> 00:23:31.900 - None of my children have read a single line of what I have written. 220 00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:37.500 - So maybe you have the same case. 221 00:23:38.100 --> 00:23:44.200 - But for some reason it always put me in a cheerful mood. 222 00:23:44.200 --> 00:23:49.500 - Well, that is, she said, that for him, since the most important thing was the admiration of the audience, 223 0:23:49.500 --> 00:23:52.600 when he was bringing me his articles at home, and I was saying, 224 00:23:52.600 --> 00:23:57.600 "Yes. Actually, everything is so-so", he could not stay in this house. 226 00:23:57.600 --> 00:24:02.100 He needed another house where he was looked at with admiration. - Is it really serious? 227 00:24:02.100 --> 00:24:07.600 - I think it's an exaggeration, but it's serious. - Well, I see. 229 00:24:09.800 --> 00:24:14.300 То есть.. Ну, нет, теперь я вижу. 230 00:24:14.300 --> 00:24:24.000 While my father felt happy only in two places - 231 00:24:24.000 --> 00:24:28.900 (This is enough to understand how much he was a person of the opposite character.) 232 00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:40.700 either in his box or in his chair at the conservatory when he was listening to music, 234 00:24:40.700 --> 00:24:48.200 or in a hot foundry. The temperature is at least 85 degrees. 00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:55.600 He stands with this membrane and looks at the pouring metal 00:24:55.600 --> 00:25:06.000 and yells at the masters, and feels himself in the place where he is he. 236 00:25:06.000 --> 00:25:13.400 He was a metallurgical engineer. He was very much loved. He hated any promotions. 237 00:25:16.800 --> 00:25:27.400 - And how, interestingly, did his interest in pouring metal turn into your interest in thinking? 239 00:25:27.400 --> 00:25:32.500 - You know, I think there was not a transformation here. 240 00:25:32.500 --> 00:25:44.500 Well, you know, my father, he was just a Jew with a reverse direction vector of intuition. 241 00:25:44.500 --> 00:25:49.500 He studied brilliantly. 00:25:51.600 --> 00:25:55.300 But, the truth is, the institute was wonderful. He was with wonderful teachers. 00:25:55.300 --> 00:26:00.500 Everything has been preserved from pre-revolutionary times in their institute. You've probably heard - this is a Mining institute. 242 00:26:00.500 --> 00:26:07.500 - Yes, of course. - It was such an elite company of great metallurgists, technologists. 243 00:26:09.200 --> 00:26:18.600 And since he was from the poor, he was immediately promoted. 244 00:26:18.600 --> 00:26:23.700 And that's where intuition began to work. Не didn't want to advance anywhere. 245 00:26:24.000 --> 00:26:33.200 - That is, he was never a member of the Party? - Never. He refused a huge promotion in Moscow - from the first, from the second. 246 00:26:33.200 --> 00:26:37.800 Mom was terribly unhappy. 00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:47.200 - And who was your mother? - She was a German language teacher who was very worried about her social status. 247 00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:58.800 Well, who is she? She is the head of the workshop of the Moscow Bicycle Factory. Remember, there was such Factory? 00:26:59.400 --> 00:27:02.600 - Bicycle Factory? - Yes. But it never produced bicycles. 248 00:27:02.600 --> 00:27:08.900 He was an anti-status person. Maybe I got it from him somewhere. 249 00:27:12.800 --> 00:27:18.200 - And, interestingly, my mother is a completely anti-status person. 00:27:18.200 --> 00:27:20.800 - Oh, you have the opposite? - Yes, I have the opposite. 251 00:27:20.800 --> 00:27:25.600 That's why I've been thrown from one extreme to the other all my life. 252 00:27:25.600 --> 00:27:30.900 Then, suddenly, I achieve some kind of status, then I diligently destroy it. 253 00:27:31.500 --> 00:27:38.600 - You know, my father had one vainglorious note. Only one! 254 00:27:38.600 --> 00:27:47.900 He told me. He wanted to be acquainted and friends only 255 00:27:47.900 --> 00:27:51.600 with great musicians. That's right! 00:27:51.600 --> 00:28:01.800 - And did he succeed? - Oh, yes. He was a charming man with absolutely no complexes. 256 00:28:01.800 --> 00:28:13.100 - And which of the musicians was he friends with? - Who was he friends with? You probably don't remember anymore. You are much younger. 257 00:28:16.800 --> 00:28:25.700 Who was he friends with? He was friends with the entire instrumental elite of the Bolshoi Theater. 00:28:26.100 --> 00:28:29.600 There the First violin is he was his close friend. There was such Zhuk. 00:28:29.600 --> 00:28:32.500 - You don't remember, of course? - No. 258 00:28:32.500 --> 00:28:36.000 - Where did his interest in music come from? Did he ever study music? 00:28:36.000 --> 00:28:39.600 - It's not an interest. This is a wild love from childhood. - Well, did he play? 259 00:28:39.600 --> 00:28:46.600 - Never. - But he knew and understood music well? 260 00:28:46.600 --> 00:28:49.600 - Oh-oh-oh. Like, everything in the world. 00:28:49.600 --> 00:28:57.100 I remember it somehow already passed on to my sister. I remember... 00:28:57.100 --> 00:29:04.700 (Сколько мне тогда было лет? 17.) ...when a very tall guy in a greatcoat appeared in our apartment 261 00:29:04.700 --> 00:29:16.400 (if you can call this dirty miracle of a communal apartment an apartment). 262 00:29:19.600 --> 00:29:31.100 And my sister said to my father, "Dad, I brought Slava for you." It was young Richter. 263 00:29:35.700 --> 00:29:40.400 - Have you inherited a love of music? - Absolutely. 264 00:29:41.800 --> 00:29:47.400 - But also exactly as a listener? Have you never played? - Only as a listener. 265 00:29:51.100 --> 00:30:00.100 - Do you have any, I do not know, favorite period of music that you listen to more often than another? 267 00:30:00.100 --> 00:30:06.900 - You know, it's hard to say. This changes over time, with age, returns, for example. 00:30:07.600 --> 00:30:11.500 I don't think it will surprise you at all. 00:30:11.500 --> 00:30:20.000 In recent years I have discovered... no, rediscovered jazz. 268 00:30:21.200 --> 00:30:25.500 Of course you love jazz? - I love jazz. - Here. And I suddenly discovered there such ... 269 00:30:25.500 --> 00:30:34.200 Here I and Luda... (here Luda played...) I have already discovered such miracles! 270 00:30:35.000 --> 00:30:42.900 And my daughter, a pianist, she just was shrugging her shoulders contemptuously: "How? Haven't you reached it yet?" 00:30:46.900 --> 00:30:50.900 - By the way, I was lucky. When I came to America, ... 271 00:30:50.900 --> 00:30:53.600 - By the way, you still found many alive. 272 00:30:53.600 --> 00:31:00.800 - I went to a Dizzy Gillespie concert. - You weren't at Monk's concert? Monk is already dead. 273 00:31:00.800 --> 00:31:06.900 - No. Unfortunately, I was late. But I was at a concert by Ella Fitzgerald, Dizzy Gillespie... 274 00:31:06.900 --> 00:31:11.600 - I'm pitty I didn't have time. - ... Akhmat Jamal, who, by the way, is alive, in my opinion. 275 00:31:11.600 --> 00:31:21.700 - Alive. Yes, he's alive. - And Stan Getz, who was still alive. - You have found a lot more. 276 00:31:21.700 --> 00:31:25.800 - I found a lot. Moreover, Stan Getz impressed me. 277 00:31:25.800 --> 00:31:29.800 It was an interesting concert at the Playboy Club. 278 00:31:31.600 --> 00:31:36.900 In one room, some naked girls were walking around the stage, and in the next room, Stan Getz was playing the saxophone. 280 00:31:38.100 --> 00:31:43.800 - Not bad, let's say. - It wasn't bad. It was possible to sit down so as to listen to him, and look there. 281 00:31:43.800 --> 00:31:44.800 So it was quite... 283 00:31:48.700 --> 00:31:52.300 And what struck me was that he spoke, 284 00:31:52.300 --> 00:31:56.300 despite the fact that he had lived in America for so many years, with a strong Polish accent. 285 00:32:00.500 --> 00:32:04.200 - I'm sorry, I was told that he doesn't speak English well at all. 286 00:32:04.200 --> 00:32:08.800 - Bad, bad. But the main thing is that he was playing well. 287 00:32:10.900 --> 00:32:18.200 - But still, you didn't hear Monk. - I've never heard Monk live. Although I like him very much. 288 00:32:18.200 --> 00:32:22.200 - Well, that's, of course..! Here he is some kind of special for me (phenomenon?). 00:32:22.200 --> 00:32:29.900 - Yes, it's amazing. And most importantly, the fact that, in my opinion, he first sat down at the piano at the age of 20 and never... 291 00:32:29.900 --> 00:32:35.600 - He came to us when I was in America, (his son was in college). 292 00:32:35.600 --> 00:32:40.900 No. At the age of 23. He said that he began to play. 00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:46.600 - Yes, and, of course, he could never move his fingers quickly, 294 00:32:46.600 --> 00:32:50.800 and this created an absolutely amazing style 295 00:32:50.800 --> 00:32:57.300 when technique did not matter at all, and musical thought was more important 296 00:32:57.300 --> 00:33:00.800 than technique, unlike many virtuosos. 00:33:04.100 --> 00:33:12.800 - No, but you know, in general, the role of technique... (It's hardly interesting for you to hear from me. You know that without me.) 297 00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:22.700 But, after all, in general, a great musician is a great musician. No one is asking: 00:33:23.400 --> 00:33:29.600 "Why does he have such a sound?" Because he's a great musician. - Of course, of course. 299 00:33:29.600 --> 00:33:34.200 - Well, if you sort out what kind of sound Richter had, 00:33:34.200 --> 00:33:38.100 then, of course, Horowitz could play with a better sound. 300 00:33:41.000 --> 00:33:48.400 - Do you have any favorite periods or names from classical music? 301 00:33:48.400 --> 00:33:56.300 - You know, names, periods are difficult. 302 00:33:56.300 --> 00:34:00.000 My whole life, of course, began with romantics. 303 00:34:00.900 --> 00:34:06.800 - It's interesting, but all my life I absolutely could not tolerate romantics. 304 00:34:06.800 --> 00:34:16.600 - You're not the first. - I can't listen to Liszt at all. - No, here's Liszt - this is an exception for me. It's not that I can't, but... 305 00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:24.500 - Well, I really love Chopin, of course... - Although Liszt has some great things. 306 00:34:24.500 --> 00:34:28.500 After all, the (?) sonata is divine. 307 00:34:31.200 --> 00:34:39.200 - I can agree with that, but I would never put a Liszt on a player for myself at home in my life. 309 00:34:40.900 --> 00:34:50.500 But, rather, it's Bach and the Baroque Era, in general. 310 00:34:50.500 --> 00:34:53.500 - Still, Baroque. - Yes. 311 00:34:56.700 --> 00:35:00.600 Although, in architecture - rather Gothic, and in music - rather Baroque. 312 00:35:00.600 --> 00:35:08.800 - But, you know, of course, for me, architecture is primarily Gothic. 313 00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:14.100 Moreover, the earlier the better. - Of course. - And already further. 314 00:35:15.400 --> 00:35:26.800 Here we ran into, do you know which church in northern border Italy, border with Austria, in the Alps? 315 00:35:26.800 --> 00:35:33.500 I couldn't believe my eyes. VII century. - Well, that's then... 00:35:33.500 --> 00:35:37.800 - It's a Romanesque style. - It's Romanesque, not Gothic. 00:35:37.800 --> 00:35:44.400 Here in England, as you understand, I was just thrown into the water. 00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:48.600 I've seen a lot of things here. 316 00:35:48.600 --> 00:35:55.400 Did you know that England ranks first in the preservation of architecture in Europe? 317 00:35:56.200 --> 00:36:02.900 - I didn't know this, but it doesn't surprise me, because I traveled a little bit around the West of England, 319 00:36:02.900 --> 00:36:08.600 around Bristol, in all places and was amazed at the condition of all these cathedrals. 320 00:36:08.600 --> 00:36:11.600 - What cathedrals!? There... 321 00:36:14.900 --> 00:36:22.900 - And what is the reason for this? - This is explained... No, first of all, of course, why fool around, 322 00:36:23.900 --> 00:36:41.500 this is a very solid stone construction and a very high initial level of masonry. 323 00:36:43.900 --> 00:36:50.200 Well, besides, it was clearly a mania among the British. 324 00:36:50.200 --> 00:37:02.500 It is not clear to me whether the Normans who came with William the conqueror, wild bandits, can be called English. 325 00:37:03.200 --> 00:37:14.900 - They're probably more French than English. - Or the Normans. Wild bandits. 326 00:37:14.900 --> 00:37:29.400 As one chronicler, already late, of the time of Henry II Plantagenet, 327 00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:37.500 wrote about his patron baron 328 00:37:37.500 --> 00:37:44.000 that this man could not live for six months without a new woman 329 00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:53.900 and without him building another temple or castle. 330 00:37:59.400 --> 00:38:03.800 You know, it was a mania. After all, there is another interesting thing here, where did so many masters come from? 00:38:05.800 --> 00:38:11.200 - Yes, it's amazing. - It's mysterious. Which didn't know anything. 331 00:38:13.000 --> 00:38:17.800 - How did they not know anything? They knew a lot, if you look at how it was built. 332 00:38:17.800 --> 00:38:26.100 - And they had this in their hands. I think they would not have passed a single exam in any architectural institute. 333 00:38:26.100 --> 00:38:31.700 - By the resistance of materials? - No. By construction, by drawing, by anything. 334 00:38:32.600 --> 00:38:37.900 - No. Well, there are amazing engineering findings. This is the Wells Cathedral. 335 00:38:37.900 --> 00:38:45.500 - Нет, ну знаете, Wells Cathedral это, конечно, one of, как говорят англичане. Это гениально. Это... 336 00:38:47.300 --> 00:38:52.800 - Абсолютно. И вот эти ножничные арки... - Нет, Wells Cathedral, который строили... 00:38:52.800 --> 00:38:59.300 Do you know how many bricklayers, workers there were? - No, I don't know. 337 00:38:59.300 --> 00:39:04.800 - 8 people. - 8 people?! But maybe that's the secret. 338 00:39:05.800 --> 00:39:11.900 - 8 people, master, assistant master. 00:39:12.500 --> 00:39:18.600 - Amazing. - Of course, Canterbury Cathedral is nothing compared to Wells Cathedral. 00:39:20.300 --> 00:39:27.500 - Yes. This is, of course, amazing. - Nice cathedral. But I would put Wells Cathedral... 339 00:39:27.500 --> 00:39:32.900 ...well, in it's hard to say which ones, because it's in different parameters. Yes. 340 00:39:32.900 --> 00:39:37.900 Because it's the monstrous Durham Cathedral.... (You've seen it, right?) 341 00:39:37.900 --> 00:39:44.400 - No, I haven't. - Durham Cathedral - The cathedral in Durham. 00:39:45.200 --> 00:39:51.400 Well, do you know where Durham is? This is Northern England. Already from there to Scotland kilometers... 342 00:39:51.400 --> 00:39:56.500 - No. I just wasn't in that region. - ... 150-200 kilometers. 343 00:39:56.500 --> 00:40:07.600 - This is, from the base to..., the highest cathedral in Europe. 344 00:40:07.600 --> 00:40:15.800 And this is the first Cathedral in Europe in terms of internal volume. The entire population could placed there... 345 00:40:16.300 --> 00:40:20.300 - Stunningly. - ...during the siege.. 00:40:22.200 --> 00:40:27.900 - Now, interestingly, a new Catholic cathedral has been built in Los Angeles. 346 00:40:27.900 --> 00:40:35.500 It was built by a Spanish architect. And there now, because there is a huge migration from Latin America, 348 00:40:35.500 --> 00:40:39.500 to Los Angeles, there already Spanish. 349 00:40:41.000 --> 00:40:47.400 More than 50%, in my opinion, of the population speaks Spanish, so there is a very strong Catholic community. 350 00:40:47.400 --> 00:40:53.000 They have a huge amount of money. They built a grandiose brand new cathedral. 352 00:40:53.000 --> 00:40:59.000 But the idea was that, firstly, the architect was given such a task 353 00:40:59.000 --> 00:41:04.100 that this cathedral could withstand an earthquake up to 8 points. 354 00:41:04.100 --> 00:41:08.000 And 8 points is when everything is already falling apart. 356 00:41:08.000 --> 00:41:13.700 And the rector of the cathedral said that the most important thing for me is that when some misfortune happens, 357 00:41:13.700 --> 00:41:19.900 people rush to the cathedral, and not somewhere else. 359 00:41:23.600 --> 00:41:29.100 - Well, yes, I must say that the great Gaudi did not set such goals for himself. 360 00:41:29.100 --> 00:41:32.800 - No. - Do you like Gaudi? - Very much. Although I've never been to Spain. 00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:40.000 - Here, I haven't been to Barcelona. I haven't been to Spain. 362 00:41:40.200 --> 00:41:49.900 - It's a dream to visit Barcelona. - Well, it's a genius. Excuse me, I'll leave you for a minute. 363 00:41:51.300 --> 00:41:58.900 - ...of the academic council. Well! Really, a charming man. What was his name? 364 00:42:00.900 --> 00:42:06.700 - I don't know. - Well? You knew him very well, very well. 00:42:06.700 --> 00:42:10.000 - Do you mean (the Institute) of Foreign Languages? - From (the Institute) of Foreign Languages, yes. 00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:16.000 - No. I do not know who this is. - Well! What was his name? Shaikevich! 00:42:16.800 --> 00:42:23.800 - No. I do not know who this is. - Well! What was his name? Shaikevich! 369 00:42:24.500 --> 00:42:27.800 - Why? - He said a stupid phrase: 370 00:42:27.800 --> 00:42:33.900 (We were all stunningly stupid back then, and at the same time, cute.) 371 00:42:34.600 --> 00:42:39.200 "I want to introduce one extraordinary person to another ordinary person." 372 00:42:39.200 --> 00:42:42.900 Is it possible to resist, tell me? What kind of woman would resist? 00:42:42.900 --> 00:42:46.300 - Yes, neither a woman nor a man. 373 00:42:46.300 --> 00:42:52.700 - And then I saw Asarkan for the first and last time. Did you know him? Yes? 374 00:42:53.300 --> 00:42:59.000 - Yes. Well, I was, in a sense, a student, a boy of Asarkan. - Well, yes. 375 00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:04.400 - I passed Asarkan College. - Well, yes. But not like Zinik. 377 00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:09.800 - I just got out of it early, and Zinik was stuck in it for many years. 378 00:43:12.500 --> 00:43:18.300 - Well, you know, in addition to wild envy, I had, as it were 380 00:43:18.300 --> 00:43:24.200 two feelings tormented my heart during these short, 381 00:43:24.200 --> 00:43:29.200 for some 5, 6, 7, maximum, 10 minutes, 382 00:43:29.800 --> 00:43:40.700 that this person knows infinitely more than me and, therefore, infinitely more than me. 383 00:43:40.700 --> 00:43:44.900 - It's amazing because this is a man who graduated from the 4 grade of elementary school. 384 00:43:51.000 --> 00:43:57.300 - You know that Edison, I think... I don't remember if he graduated from the four grade or not? 385 00:43:57.300 --> 00:44:03.400 I'm not talking about Winston Churchill, who with great difficulty graduated 386 00:44:05.600 --> 00:44:08.600 from a ten-month course of cavalry officers. 387 00:44:08.600 --> 00:44:14.300 Can you imagine the level of education? 388 00:44:14.300 --> 00:44:23.400 No. I remember when Shaikevich asked me later: "Well? What do you think?" 389 00:44:23.400 --> 00:44:33.500 I said (I remember the answer)... no! It wasn't Shaikevich who asked me (not interesting!), 391 00:44:33.500 --> 00:44:41.300 but my, alas, deceased friend (I don't think you know about him) Andrey Sergeev. 392 00:44:41.300 --> 00:44:46.000 - No, I don't know. - A wonderful writer and a very interesting poet. 393 00:44:50.600 --> 00:44:54.700 He says, "Well, why do you look so excited, Sasha?" 394 00:44:54.700 --> 00:45:02.000 I say, "Today I was introduced to Asarkan." He says, "Well, what's your impression?" 396 00:45:02.000 --> 00:45:14.100 I say, "In my opinion, there is something in this person that I don't have and won't have." 397 00:45:14.100 --> 00:45:20.600 To which he said: "Well, Sasha, there is something in Asarkan that no one else has." 398 00:45:21.700 --> 00:45:31.200 - And what is it? - But, you understand, the late Andrei did not explain this to me. 400 00:45:32.000 --> 00:45:35.800 Who absolutely did not belong to this company, to yours, that is. 00:45:37.200 --> 00:45:42.700 But he was an extraordinary man. I'm talking about Andrew. 401 00:45:42.700 --> 00:45:49.700 - I do not know Andrey. Well, what is the "secret of Asarkan", a person from whom there is no..., 403 00:45:49.700 --> 00:45:55.800 well, maybe there are 2-3 articles left? What exactly is the mystery? 405 00:45:55.800 --> 00:46:08.700 - It's a secret... He was (Forgive me for this abracadabra. Okay?) catalyst of personality. 406 00:46:09.700 --> 00:46:16.600 - What does that mean? - This is a person who (After all, you know this? I think that not every person is a personality)... 408 00:46:16.600 --> 00:46:24.000 - Of course.. - A catalyst of personality is a person who is a personality himself, of course, 409 00:46:24.000 --> 00:46:28.700 who catalyzes in others a personal principle 410 00:46:28.700 --> 00:46:33.700 about which they themselves may not have the slightest idea. Is that clear? 412 00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:45.000 - I understand, yes. But it is interesting that his influence on me, in particular, 413 00:46:45.000 --> 00:46:50.000 was more or less equally positive and negative. 414 00:46:50.000 --> 00:46:56.000 - And this is mandatory. And what, in your opinion, is the personal principle only positive? 415 00:46:56.500 --> 00:47:04.600 - I don't know. - It is and is purely negative. - Why? 416 00:47:04.600 --> 00:47:15.600 - Because only a personality can bring real harm to himself and others. 418 00:47:15.600 --> 00:47:20.200 Only a personality can have a real influence, both good and bad. 420 00:47:25.000 --> 00:47:30.500 The real destruction can only come from the personality. 421 00:47:30.500 --> 00:47:36.100 Real restoration can only come from the personality. 422 00:47:36.800 --> 00:47:39.800 - It's clear, right? - Yes, absolutely. 423 00:47:41.800 --> 00:47:48.100 And what? You said you talked to him for 10 minutes. What exactly was the conversation about? 424 00:47:48.100 --> 00:47:54.900 - No. I was silent, as you understand perfectly well. - Yes. 425 00:47:54.900 --> 00:48:04.300 I think that at that time I was not much older than you at the time of your acquaintance. 427 00:48:05.400 --> 00:48:11.800 - Wait, is he older than you or younger? - Who? - Asarkan. - 3 years older. 428 00:48:15.000 --> 00:48:20.000 But how old were you when you met Asarkan? - 15. 429 00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:34.600 - And when I met Asarkan, I was 34. No, 33. 430 00:48:34.600 --> 00:48:39.800 - But do you understand how much more impressive Asarkan can make 431 00:48:39.800 --> 00:48:44.300 on a fifteen-year-old boy than on a 34-year-old? 432 00:48:44.300 --> 00:48:51.500 - No, I had another person who impressed me at your age 433 00:48:51.500 --> 00:48:56.400 and became my first teacher for many years 434 00:48:56.400 --> 00:49:03.400 and in many ways defined what I was and what I am. 435 00:49:03.800 --> 00:49:07.900 - Who was it? - He was anti-Asarkan by nature. 436 00:49:07.900 --> 00:49:19.600 The name of this person is unknown to you. And they forgot about him. He died 4 years ago. 437 00:49:20.800 --> 00:49:29.800 There was, however, excuse me, Academician Yuri Valentinovich Knorozov. 438 00:49:31.600 --> 00:49:35.000 I bet you've never heard that name. 439 00:49:35.000 --> 00:49:41.900 - I've heard that name, but I don't remember. If someone had asked me, "Have I heard that name?", 441 00:49:41.900 --> 00:49:45.700 I would have said, "Yes." If asked: "Who is this?", I would say: "I don't know." 443 00:49:45.700 --> 00:45:50.100 - He was an absolutely brilliant man. 00:49:56.400 --> 00:49:59.900 - And who was he by profession? Academician of what? 00:49:59.900 --> 00:50:16.000 - And you know, alas, he was formally elected an academician, if I'm not mistaken, in the category of philology, 445 00:50:16.200 --> 00:50:20.400 when it was complete nonsense. 446 00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:29.300 He was the first person in history, 25 years ahead of Americans, 447 00:50:29.300 --> 00:50:36.600 who deciphered Maya inscriptions. 00:50:43.600 --> 00:50:47.400 So, he is much more famous in America than in Russia. 448 00:50:52.700 --> 00:50:59.200 But he was my teacher not at all in this area, but in the field 450 00:51:00.200 --> 00:51:06.800 of the origin of world culture and in general human as we see him today, his consciousness. 452 00:51:08.100 --> 00:51:25.700 I had just turned 16 at that time, and he was already a 2nd-year student of the History Faculty of Moscow University. 454 00:51:26.400 --> 00:51:32.400 - That is, he was 12 years older than you? - Oh, no. 6 years older. 455 00:51:32.400 --> 00:51:38.700 - Only? - Only 6 years older. He was, as it were, from the trenches. 456 00:51:40.900 --> 00:51:51.600 - From the trenches? - Yes. He was a front-line soldier with a terrible front-line past. 458 00:51:56.600 --> 00:52:04.800 He was, in the sense, my teacher, as Alexander Naumovich was for you.